Oil Prices Now

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CaptSpiff

Minister of Fire
Jan 13, 2014
550
Long Island, NY
Maybe someone involved in OTR trucking can revive my memory on this: Don't truckers have to show fuel purchases in every State they travel thru, commensurate with distance traveled in that State, in their log books?
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
1,174
SE North Carolina
Fuel taxes help keep the roads in fair condition.
Many states have an extra EV fee paid at the time of registration. In NC it’s 130$ a year
evan
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,114
Downeast Maine
Road signage, line painting, extra lanes for increased traffic, access roads to shopping centers, subdivisions etc are all directly related to the amount of vehicles on the road regardless of fuel type. Take all the passenger vehicles off the roads and the infrastructure required to just support transport trucks would be significantly smaller than it is today, there is a cost associated with passenger vehicles.

EV owners need to pay for the roads they operate on, and I suspect most jurisdictions will enact road use taxes on EVs in the coming years.
The companies employing the OTR trucks and selling us goods are profiting off of the roads. I get it, EVs and commuters use roads too, but the fees at time of registration more than cover the percentage of damage caused by said commuters. The endless dump trucks, semi trucks, and other heavy vehicles cause the overwhelming majority of the damage but only pay for it in fuel tax. Trucks have only gotten more fuel efficient, as have all other vehicles for that matter. As usual the corporations are making record profits and passing on the expenses to the consumers. No thanks, I'll let the people making money off the road maintain it.
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
1,491
Eastern Long Island NY
inflation is here and its coming even more..clancey

That is not the expectation of the experts who make their money gambling on these things - see the bond prices.
 

clancey

Minister of Fire
Feb 26, 2021
1,392
Colorado
Yea the bond prices are going up and they were down for a long time but that is not the only judge of the stock market.. Right now basics like milk and beef is really high and in the next few weeks all kinds of food prices will be double or less in the containers.. I worry when the gold prices rise because that means less cash flow and that's why they are selling gold and silver right now to begin with--see all the advertisements..Oil will be 100 a barrel in my estimation real soon before christmas,,, I could be wrong but I do not think so...Glad you all got some wood stocked up because prices will be going out the window especially right before winter (my predictions here nothing backing it)..People are really into bit coin but I say that market is just too crazy and it moves up and down in a erratic way as well and their might be some kind of enforcement in regarding it..Maybe who knows and I do know that I spent a lot of money on a wood stove because of my concerns and convictions and I could be wrong but my brain does not think so...lol lol clancey...
 

Bad LP

Minister of Fire
Nov 28, 2014
1,719
Northern Maine
The companies employing the OTR trucks and selling us goods are profiting off of the roads. I get it, EVs and commuters use roads too, but the fees at time of registration more than cover the percentage of damage caused by said commuters. The endless dump trucks, semi trucks, and other heavy vehicles cause the overwhelming majority of the damage but only pay for it in fuel tax. Trucks have only gotten more fuel efficient, as have all other vehicles for that matter. As usual the corporations are making record profits and passing on the expenses to the consumers. No thanks, I'll let the people making money off the road maintain it.
You do realize that they are paying thousands of dollars for yearly registration, taxes, permits and many other costs but they also pay a crap ton in fuel taxes.
If cars don’t damage roads please explain the parkways in NY and CT where trucks are not allowed at all.
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
1,491
Eastern Long Island NY
You do realize that they are paying thousands of dollars for yearly registration, taxes, permits and many other costs but they also pay a crap ton in fuel taxes.
If cars don’t damage roads please explain the parkways in NY and CT where trucks are not allowed at all.

Frost :)

But, you're right. I just don't know what the relative damage is between a 2500 lbs car or a truck. It might not scale linearly with weight...
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,114
Downeast Maine
You do realize that they are paying thousands of dollars for yearly registration, taxes, permits and many other costs but they also pay a crap ton in fuel taxes.
If cars don’t damage roads please explain the parkways in NY and CT where trucks are not allowed at all.

I didn't say they don't damage roads, I said heavy trucks do the overwhelming majority of the damage. Many of which are not registered were they are primarily operated. The trucks that go up and down my three digit road are not registered in my town, don't buy fuel near here, and do not contribute to the repairs to that road. It's the only road around besides Route One and it's maintained at the municipal level. A Chevy Bolt is not doing the same amount of damage that a fully loaded log truck, etc. will. The corporations and businesses profiting off of the existence of the roads and the consumers that live on them should be responsible for the upkeep.
 

Bad LP

Minister of Fire
Nov 28, 2014
1,719
Northern Maine
I didn't say they don't damage roads, I said heavy trucks do the overwhelming majority of the damage. Many of which are not registered were they are primarily operated. The trucks that go up and down my three digit road are not registered in my town, don't buy fuel near here, and do not contribute to the repairs to that road. It's the only road around besides Route One and it's maintained at the municipal level. A Chevy Bolt is not doing the same amount of damage that a fully loaded log truck, etc. will. The corporations and businesses profiting off of the existence of the roads and the consumers that live on them should be responsible for the upkeep.
Every mile operated in a state is taxed. Log books prove where they have been as well as their hours of driving.
 

Bad LP

Minister of Fire
Nov 28, 2014
1,719
Northern Maine
Frost :)

But, you're right. I just don't know what the relative damage is between a 2500 lbs car or a truck. It might not scale linearly with weight...
I think the Fed tax on tires just for the tractor is a lot more than the 130 bucks mentioned.

I’ll show you frost heaves no problem but you better have your rubber teeth handy.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,114
Downeast Maine
Every mile operated in a state is taxed. Log books prove where they have been as well as their hours of driving.
Odd, you should tell the state. The roads certainly don't reflect that.
 

ABMax24

Minister of Fire
Sep 18, 2019
1,057
Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada
The companies employing the OTR trucks and selling us goods are profiting off of the roads. I get it, EVs and commuters use roads too, but the fees at time of registration more than cover the percentage of damage caused by said commuters. The endless dump trucks, semi trucks, and other heavy vehicles cause the overwhelming majority of the damage but only pay for it in fuel tax. Trucks have only gotten more fuel efficient, as have all other vehicles for that matter. As usual the corporations are making record profits and passing on the expenses to the consumers. No thanks, I'll let the people making money off the road maintain it.

What a shame that owner/operators or truck drivers try to make a couple bucks to feed their families while delivering your groceries to the store or your Amazon package to your door.

I wish I lived where you live, around here truck driver and rich don't go together in the same sentance.
 

Bad LP

Minister of Fire
Nov 28, 2014
1,719
Northern Maine
Odd, you should tell the state. The roads certainly don't reflect that.
Ya. Maybe they should have stopped building them on top of substandard materials versus just covering them with years of skim coats. They could have used the money to drive on that they wasted on free give aways. It’s not like Maine doesn’t have harsh winters and improper road beds.
No?
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,114
Downeast Maine
What a shame that owner/operators or truck drivers try to make a couple bucks to feed their families while delivering your groceries to the store or your Amazon package to your door.

I wish I lived where you live, around here truck driver and rich don't go together in the same sentance.
Lol, I'm not complaining about the truck drivers. What are you talking about? I'm saying the big trucks do the most damage to the roads. The truck drivers aren't at fault and I haven't said anything about them. Their employers and the companies selling goods that must be transported are making money hand over fist at the EXPENSE of truckers and consumers. I'm not saying truck drivers should be personally responsible for the roads, I'm saying their employers and the companies selling the transported goods need to be responsible.

You, and others, seem to have a chip on your shoulder and think myself and others hate the working class or working people. I'm a military veteran from a military/rural working family. Certainly I don't hate truckers and my last landlord, before moving to Maine, was a trucker.

So these big trucks do the majority of damage to the roads, that's indisputable. Obviously the current system isn't working for employers of the OTR and other heavy trucks to keep the roads maintained, which are in poor shape nationwide. The tax per mile and fuel tax is undeniably working poorly at best. Why even bring up a future problem where EVs don't pay for fuel tax thereby destroying the roads? That's just propaganda against EVs. The roads have already been destroyed, obviously EVs are not the problem.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,114
Downeast Maine
By the way, the damage does not scale linearly as another poster theorized. Here is one source among many others.

"A study by the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO) determined that the road damage caused by a single 18-wheeler was equivalent to the damage caused by 9,600 cars"

I think we can all agree that the shipping companies do not pay 9,600 cars worth of tax/fees to maintain the roads.
 
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Bad LP

Minister of Fire
Nov 28, 2014
1,719
Northern Maine
By the way, the damage does not scale linearly as another poster theorized. Here is one source among many others.

"A study by the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO) determined that the road damage caused by a single 18-wheeler was equivalent to the damage caused by 9,600 cars"

I think we can all agree that the shipping companies do not pay 9,600 cars worth of tax/fees to maintain the roads.
GREAT!! Let's add 9600 elecrtic cars going past your house for every truck rumbling by. What a shame that Maine law doesn't allow trucks greater than 80000 pounds to travel the interstate. That would put more trucks on roads that were designed for greater load ratings.
My 10 wheeler in MA was registered for 68K and a properly set up tri-axle can go to 73K. I've been out of trucking for a while but I'm rather confident that the yearly registration fees my friends pay (1 has three tri axles on the road) is around 5000/per truck. I think that exceeds my own fees by a lot.

If logging trucks are limited to 80K like all other TT units the price of lumber and toilet paper is going to be on the moon.
 

ABMax24

Minister of Fire
Sep 18, 2019
1,057
Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada
Lol, I'm not complaining about the truck drivers. What are you talking about? I'm saying the big trucks do the most damage to the roads. The truck drivers aren't at fault and I haven't said anything about them. Their employers and the companies selling goods that must be transported are making money hand over fist at the EXPENSE of truckers and consumers. I'm not saying truck drivers should be personally responsible for the roads, I'm saying their employers and the companies selling the transported goods need to be responsible.

You, and others, seem to have a chip on your shoulder and think myself and others hate the working class or working people. I'm a military veteran from a military/rural working family. Certainly I don't hate truckers and my last landlord, before moving to Maine, was a trucker.

So these big trucks do the majority of damage to the roads, that's indisputable. Obviously the current system isn't working for employers of the OTR and other heavy trucks to keep the roads maintained, which are in poor shape nationwide. The tax per mile and fuel tax is undeniably working poorly at best. Why even bring up a future problem where EVs don't pay for fuel tax thereby destroying the roads? That's just propaganda against EVs. The roads have already been destroyed, obviously EVs are not the problem.

I'm arguing against your premise that the trucking industry is some giant profit making machine that destroys the roads in return for some outlandish profit.

The trucking industry is extremely competitive and anyone with a work ethic and enough money to purchase a truck can enter it. In the US 20% of trucks are owner/operators and in Canada that figure is 22%, ie the owner owns one truck and drives it him/herself. Competition drives down prices, and as such lowers profitability, that's where my comment about owner/operators and truck drivers come from, they're not making it rich owning or operating these trucks, they're making a living and really not much more.

As for profit over the expense of the drivers, lots of drivers at some point have believed this to be true as well, and have went out on their own, many at that point realize that by time they make payments on the trucks, pay for maintenance; fuel, registration, insurance, inspections, etc on the truck, they're not making a whole lot more than just driving for someone else, but have greatly increased their stress levels due to increased exposure to financial failure.

Maintenance of the roads is only one part of the equation, new roads need to be built all the time, lanes are added to highways and freeways because of increased traffic flows. These aren't the problem of trucks, but often due to urban sprawl and that of increased passenger vehicle traffic. All vehicles need to pay their share for these upgrades, yes heavy vehicles driven more should pay a higher share, but that shouldn't in some way exclude passenger vehicles from contributing. None of this is anti-EV propaganda, it simple facts and basic math.

If we really want to go down the environmental rabbit hole, wouldn't it make sense to have a per mile tax on EV's to incentivize car pooling and limit miles driven? At least a portion of the electricity that is used to charge most of these EVs is still generated by the combustion of fossil fuels, so although efficiency is on the side of the EV and overall CO2 production has been reduced, to some extent we've just moved CO2 emission from a tailpipe to a powerplant stack.
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,114
Downeast Maine
GREAT!! Let's add 9600 elecrtic cars going past your house for every truck rumbling by. What a shame that Maine law doesn't allow trucks greater than 80000 pounds to travel the interstate. That would put more trucks on roads that were designed for greater load ratings.
My 10 wheeler in MA was registered for 68K and a properly set up tri-axle can go to 73K. I've been out of trucking for a while but I'm rather confident that the yearly registration fees my friends pay (1 has three tri axles on the road) is around 5000/per truck. I think that exceeds my own fees by a lot.

If logging trucks are limited to 80K like all other TT units the price of lumber and toilet paper is going to be on the moon.
I don't understand your point at all. Neither of you are actually arguing with me, but with some point you think I'm making. Each log truck that drives down the road is equivalent in damage to 9,600 passenger cars driving in the same place. Where did I say weight limits should be altered? Where did I complain about how heavy trucks are? I do know that transportation companies and retailers are not paying the equivalent of 9,600 passenger cars worth of damage to the road. If those fees were really being paid accurately then why are roads nationwide in horrible shape? If municipalities don't have the budget, then the fees to use the road should increase and the fee should obviously be based on weight since that is what damages the roads. What do you think is going to happen to the roads when EV trucks are out there causing the same damage but paying even less into the system to fix the roads? Retailers and transport companies will have to pay more to fix the roads if they want to make any money.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,114
Downeast Maine
I'm arguing against your premise that the trucking industry is some giant profit making machine that destroys the roads in return for some outlandish profit.

The trucking industry is extremely competitive and anyone with a work ethic and enough money to purchase a truck can enter it. In the US 20% of trucks are owner/operators and in Canada that figure is 22%, ie the owner owns one truck and drives it him/herself. Competition drives down prices, and as such lowers profitability, that's where my comment about owner/operators and truck drivers come from, they're not making it rich owning or operating these trucks, they're making a living and really not much more.

As for profit over the expense of the drivers, lots of drivers at some point have believed this to be true as well, and have went out on their own, many at that point realize that by time they make payments on the trucks, pay for maintenance; fuel, registration, insurance, inspections, etc on the truck, they're not making a whole lot more than just driving for someone else, but have greatly increased their stress levels due to increased exposure to financial failure.

Maintenance of the roads is only one part of the equation, new roads need to be built all the time, lanes are added to highways and freeways because of increased traffic flows. These aren't the problem of trucks, but often due to urban sprawl and that of increased passenger vehicle traffic. All vehicles need to pay their share for these upgrades, yes heavy vehicles driven more should pay a higher share, but that shouldn't in some way exclude passenger vehicles from contributing. None of this is anti-EV propaganda, it simple facts and basic math.

If we really want to go down the environmental rabbit hole, wouldn't it make sense to have a per mile tax on EV's to incentivize car pooling and limit miles driven? At least a portion of the electricity that is used to charge most of these EVs is still generated by the combustion of fossil fuels, so although efficiency is on the side of the EV and overall CO2 production has been reduced, to some extent we've just moved CO2 emission from a tailpipe to a powerplant stack.
Why are you so hung up on how much money the transport companies make? Without the roads, they make no money. Without the roads retailers also don't make any money. The suburbs are sprawling so more retailers can sell more things to more consumers. The roads are in place to move goods, not for the "privilege" of driving to work or living even further from a city center. Most sub divisions don't have cracking and heaved roads, but just outside of them where the HD trucks drive around the roads are busted. Obviously the damage is being done primarily by large trucks and the companies profiting off of the roads should be responsible for fixing the roads. If retailers and manufacturers want consumers to be able to drive to work, then they better make sure the road is in good shape. Without employees businesses make no money. The roads are for profit, not for consumers.
 

Bad LP

Minister of Fire
Nov 28, 2014
1,719
Northern Maine
I don't understand your point at all. Neither of you are actually arguing with me, but with some point you think I'm making. Each log truck that drives down the road is equivalent in damage to 9,600 passenger cars driving in the same place. Where did I say weight limits should be altered? Where did I complain about how heavy trucks are? I do know that transportation companies and retailers are not paying the equivalent of 9,600 passenger cars worth of damage to the road. If those fees were really being paid accurately then why are roads nationwide in horrible shape? If municipalities don't have the budget, then the fees to use the road should increase and the fee should obviously be based on weight since that is what damages the roads. What do you think is going to happen to the roads when EV trucks are out there causing the same damage but paying even less into the system to fix the roads? Retailers and transport companies will have to pay more to fix the roads if they want to make any money.
All I’m doing is shining a small light on what trucks pay. You sounded like they are responsible for damaging the roads and they are not paying their fair share. I’m pointing out that’s wrong. We typically build roads based on low bid. Trucking is paid by the mile or weight. Agreed?

Maine State Diesel is .312/gallon. Gas is .30/gallon. Let’s assume the truck gets 6MPG but the gas car gets 28. The electric car is over 50MPG.
Now run your numbers on who is paying for what. God help us all if we include what a truck pays to run the Maine Turnpike versus a car that only costs a few bucks.

EV owners are not and have never paid their fair share even when compared to my pick up truck at 13 MPG. Clearly my truck damages the roads at the same rate or very close to an EV.
Again, the 150.00 mentioned prior is a joke.
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
1,491
Eastern Long Island NY
The bottom line is that even if trucks would pay for what they damage, given the small margins, it'd be fed forward into consumer pricing. We'd be paying more for goods so that their real cost to society is recouped.

The bottom of the bottom line is that more money needs to flow into infrastructure maintenance (and less needs to get hung up in the bureaucracy that has been set up to manage tax payer money).
 

ABMax24

Minister of Fire
Sep 18, 2019
1,057
Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada
Why are you so hung up on how much money the transport companies make? Without the roads, they make no money. Without the roads retailers also don't make any money. The suburbs are sprawling so more retailers can sell more things to more consumers. The roads are in place to move goods, not for the "privilege" of driving to work or living even further from a city center. Most sub divisions don't have cracking and heaved roads, but just outside of them where the HD trucks drive around the roads are busted. Obviously the damage is being done primarily by large trucks and the companies profiting off of the roads should be responsible for fixing the roads. If retailers and manufacturers want consumers to be able to drive to work, then they better make sure the road is in good shape. Without employees businesses make no money. The roads are for profit, not for consumers.

You brought up the whole topic of the "massive profits" transport companies make as your justification to not pay an EV tax, citing those companies should pay your share instead. My posts are in response to that.

I will end this conversation here, I do not share your philosophy that I should get something for free while someone else must pay for the cost of that something.
 

peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
6,465
Northern NH
The most efficient way to transport freight over land is by rail. That has been pretty well established for a long time. Its the least carbon per ton per mile. Its substantially more carbon efficient than trucking with fossil fuels. About the only more efficient long term transport is by sail but its been awhile since sailing ships have been used in the oceans for freight. BTW the clipper ships of the era were typically getting 250 mile per day. Railroad tracks are designed to carry high loads and the weight is spread out over thousands of feet. So why are we not shipping items by rail freight or clipper ship? The answer is basically two factors, the last miles problem and speed. Rail can be reasonably speedy on main trunk lines but switching and less than car loads add a lot of lag into the picture. Eventually the rail car needs to be broken down, stored and then the individual loads need to be transported to the customer. Years ago the post office was the only entity that delivered to every address in the country. I remember as a kid when UPS started growing and it was commercial use only to selected addresses and the PO made sure it was freight only. Fed Ex was a late comer and their basis was air freight. UPS and Fed Ex gradually morphed so that they look alike. UPS added air freight and Fed Ex added ground.

Rails do not go everywhere and short line rails become non profitable as trucks are cheaper and far quicker for short haul as they cut out the middleman. Public roads do tend to go near everwhere people live. Years ago there was no residential tailgate delivery by many firms. I remember going to the UPS terminal to pick up and drop off packages with my mom since they did not delvier to residential addresses in my town, If you wanted to get truck freight you needed to drive to the local trucking terminal in the nearest large town with an appropriate truck and hand them your paperwork and once your parcel was located a guy with a forklift would deliver it to a dock and it was up to you to get it on the truck and hope the pallet fit in the truck. These days I dont even know where the nearest terminal is to me. Even long distance LTL (less than a load) freight could take weeks and unless things were packaged correctly they frequently got damaged along the way.

So we pay for convenience and speed but we make trade offs that we take more damage on our roads and put more carbon in the air, that is decision that society has made and subsidizes it.

I like my fresh cherries from Washington State and veggies from CA and FL or even South America in winter and they all only exist because of high carbon intensity fast shipping. Add a price for carbon intensity and the choice is find a way to do it local by greenhouses or just stop selling it. There are various articles that pop up on being a localvoire eating only local food and in most cases it comes down to very boring monotonous diet in winter for us folks up north. I do not think the general public will accept stopping selling it as an option, so the choice is find a way of reducing the carbon intensity of shipping. Various companies are on the cusp of Hydrogen trucks and CNG truks are already being used for shorthaul. There is lot of buzz on battery trucks but unless there is major change in battery charge density I do not see it happening.
 
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moresnow

Minister of Fire
Jan 13, 2015
1,780
Iowa
The most efficient way to transport freight over land is by rail.

Agreed. We should have never let the railroads diminish as far as we have. Stupid. They are so much more efficient, with far less overall impact in almost every respect. Sad.

BTW I made my living building the 4 lane road system. I am definitely not biased towards the railroad.
I can certainly see the obvious benefit of the rail however. Good topic!