Older wood boiler with storage vs. gasser

[gfdhoytjr]

Hi everyone, just have a few questions about what my best options may be. I know I want to upgrade to a boiler and my plan would be to install it in a separate room off my new wood shop addition. I also am pretty sure I want to have a storage tank in the basement. My current system has forced hot water baseboards heating a 1100 square foot ranch. I will be adding 1 or more modine heaters to the wood shop which is
750 ft and possibly the garage which is about 500. So my question is will I have satisfactory results using an older non gasification boiler with thermal storage tank or is a gasser the only way to go. If I understand the principle either boiler will operate nearly "wide open" all the time so isn't the storage more important than which boiler you use to heat that water? Any input would be greatly appreciated as this is all new to me.

Thanks
Mike

 

[JP11]

I can't say I've shopped non gassers.. But I guess the question is.. WHY would you buy something less efficient? even if it's a big savings.. in a few years, that efficiency will overcome the excess cost.

Super happy with my vigas setup. I'm just up the road in Minot if you want to take a look and get some ideas. I leave today for a week, but on vacation for 18 or so after that.

JP

 

[maple1]

If I understand the principle either boiler will operate nearly "wide open" all the time so isn't the storage more important than which boiler you use to heat that water?

Problem is, all boilers are not created equal when it comes to getting heat out of the water.

I know trying to hook storage up to my old boiler would have been a useless exercise - it could barely keep up with the house heat demand, let alone have any extra heat left over to send to storage.

If the boiler has tubes for heat exchanging, then maybe. But if it doesn't (and just relies on the water jacket around the combustion chamber for heat exchange), then not likely.

So - it would come down to exactly what boiler you are talking about. But you will not get the heating capacity of a gassifier, no two ways around that - so the suitability of doing this would come down to how much of your woods heat you are comfortable with sending up your chimney. 'Satisfactory' means different things to different people, and what is good with some may not be good with others.

 

[pbvermont]

Your instincts are good. "Wide open" burns with storage are the key. You can acquire good buys of used "1.0 boilers" (Tarm, Buderus etc) for hundreds of dollars. The efficiency of gassifiers is amazing but you pay a premium for that. A 2.0 boiler with storage and all its plumbing would be in the tens of thousands of dollars. AND 2.0's all need electricity to burn. You can set up a 1.0 "updraft" boiler to burn in power-outage situation with a thermo-siphon dump zone, and still have heat for the house (but not to storage). The quality of the fuel you burn, and the diligence of how you burn it is the most important thing with solid fuel heat. And that goes for gassifiers especially.

 

[maple1]

A 2.0 boiler with storage and all its plumbing would be in the tens of thousands of dollars. AND 2.0's all need electricity to burn. You can set up a 1.0 "updraft" boiler to burn in power-outage situation with a thermo-siphon dump zone, and still have heat for the house (but not to storage).

Sorry, will have to disagree with most all of this. My natural draft downdraft gassifying boiler with storage was around 15k all-in with a few extras (expensive yes, but don't think I've heard of many saying they spent in the 10's of thousands), will burn without any electricity, and can keep us nice & toasty in a power outage.

 

[tom in maine]

We have worked with a number of people who have added storage to buffer the performance of conventional wood boilers.
It does offer a performance and efficiency bump in most cases and I know we have some of those folks here on Hearth who can comment.

All things considered, if you are buying new, I would shop gasifiers. There is enough of a range in cost that there might be one to fit your budget.
I would also keep an eye on CL to see what shows up. One never knows. They do appear regularly.

 

[flyingcow]

The price of install(with storage) and controls???? Would it not be basically the same amount of cost whether it's a "gasser" vs old style of wood boiler? It should be.

Now the cost of the actual boiler. If you buy a new gasser could be anywheres from what 5k to 10/12k. depending on brand and bells and whistles? Maybe 5k is low?

Wood......if you go with a gasser, you need to season your wood at least a yr. I have burned 9 month old wood(25 to 27%mc) it did the job but not very well. I'm getting wood wood ahead so now it's in the mid/upper teens in mc. Night and day difference. But, this takes up alot of room. If you figure you need 6 cord, plan on having room for 12 to 15 cord. I move my wood on three sided pallets, I have tractor and I'm spoiled. But if i didn't have what i have now? I would have a wood shed, attached to my boiler room, that can store 6 cord on each side, with a walk way in between the 12 cord pile. But you'll need a wood shed about 20x20? maybe closer to 24x24? If you don't have that kind of room, you'll handle and restack wood alot.

look around on craigslist or uncle henry's. In the 2006/2008 time frame w alot of us bought wood boilers.......for some the honey moons over. This burning wood can be labor intensive. Pellet boilers are the attractive choice now. Plus throw in these air sourced heat pumps(which I have and like very much), there are other alternatives. So I've seen some pretty decent deals on 5 or 6yr old gasser's, that are in good shape. At least half the cost of new?

Cost of wood?? even if you have you're own wood source, IMO use the delivered price to figure your cost/ROI. My guess down where you are maybe $225/250 per delivered processed cord? If you buy it early in the season, maybe a little less.

just my thoughts.

 

[peakbagger]

Yup that is me, I have a 25 year old Burnham conventional boiler with an added on storage tank from Tom in Maine that I installed myself. I got the boiler for free for the moving so my initial investment was labor and piping. I had the wood boiler for several years prior to storage. In order to run it efficiently, I only used it in real cold weather or when I was out of the house for a few days with the thermostat set low. When I came home I would crank up the boiler and return the house back to normal temps. Inevitably I would end up overheating the house or the damper would close and then the boiler would become the dreaded "smoke dragon". I used a wood stove the rest of the time but still burned 300 gallons per year of oil for a small house. I installed the storage about 4 years ago in the mid winter. I had a few issues the first winter but once corrected I have not bought oil for 2.5 years and still have around 300 gallons in the tanks. I have substantially increased my heating load and yet the amount of wood I burn has not gone up substantially.

Tarm has a new small gasifier that looks intriguing and if my boiler fails I would probably switch over but it would be hard to justify a 6 to 8K investment when my cost for wood is gas for the chainsaw and my pickup truck.

If anyone wants to volunteer to bring their testo combustion analyzer over it would be interesting to see my Burnham's actual operating efficiency as the way I run it, its full bore with 100% undergrate air in a refractory pit. It probably cranks out NOX higher than a gasifier as its not staged combustion, but I dont expect a lot of CO is making it to the stack.

My neighbor on the other hand got a nice used Tarm and tried to run it without storage, he lets it run conventionally where he used to fill up the firebox in the AM and heat up the house then go off for the day. Once the house heated up the damper would close and the unit would smoke for several hours until the wood ran out. His chimney is an exterior chimney so all that creosote from poor combustion condensed in the stack. After numerous plugged chimneys and monthly cleaning he had a couple of chimney fires until his tiles were cracked, then went out and had a stainless insulated liner installed which lasted about a year before he had a least one more chimney fire that ruined the liner. He ended up installing an outdoor wood boiler which has the same operating issues, but the creosote tends to run back down the stack so he doesnt have chimney fires. He uses 7 to 8 cords a year while I use 3.

If there is a moral to the comparisons, if you are buying new, the upcharge for a gasifier is worth it compared to buying non gasifer. If on the other hand you can get a deal on a good used conventional and have the capabilities to move it and install it yourself and operate it correctly you can end up with good system for far less money. Be aware, most used boilers are free but they can weigh over 1000 pounds so they require some rigging knowledge.

 

[gfdhoytjr]

Thanks for all the great ideas! I was thinking about finding a decent used one that I could setup with the storage tank in an effort to save some money initially. I would eventually upgrade to a new unit but again was thinking about seeing the savings sooner if that makes sense. I'm not opposed to the moving of a unit as I'm experienced with moving and have equipment to do so. Of the older used conventional boilers available what would you guys suggest as suitable for this idea? Or am I just being cheap......

 

[leon]

Hi everyone, just have a few questions about what my best options may be. I know I want to upgrade to a boiler and my plan would be to install it in a separate room off my new wood shop addition. I also am pretty sure I want to have a storage tank in the basement. My current system has forced hot water baseboards heating a 1100 square foot ranch. I will be adding 1 or more modine heaters to the wood shop which is
750 ft and possibly the garage which is about 500. So my question is will I have satisfactory results using an older non gasification boiler with thermal storage tank or is a gasser the only way to go. If I understand the principle either boiler will operate nearly "wide open" all the time so isn't the storage more important than which boiler you use to heat that water? Any input would be greatly appreciated as this is all new to me.

Thanks
Mike

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As Many would say "It Depends"

I guess I would wanto have a heat loss test done with
one of those blower doors before I even considered
looking.


Dont Yell.

As you have very small area to heat, have you looked at or
considered a small anthracite coal stoker boiler?

 

[gfdhoytjr]

Leon, I had not had a coal boiler on the list, no particular reason just hadn't thought of it. Not sure where to even get a price in the area. I get my wood tree length for 80-100 a cord or sometimes get lucky and get a few trees here and there for free

 

[BoilerMan]

I ran a New Yorker WC130 for a few years. Connected to storage the same as my gasser is. I burned about 25% more wood as I do now, and I now heat all of my DHW, which I did not before. I had a stand-alone oil water heater, now I have a 115gal indirect heated by the wood boiler.

TS

 

[davem3261]

Last year I had an energy mate non gasser and used 9-10 cords to heat 2100 Sq ft. There is no way I could of used storage. It never would have heated it. It did smoke a lot and I don't think the neighbors liked it. Now with the biomass so far I have noticed I use half as much wood in a day and it puts out twice as much heat. I am into it for 4500. 3000 for the used boiler and 1500 for pipe, fittings and ecm pumps. No storage for me at this point.

 

[S.Whiplash]

One point that has not been mentioned is that a gasifier captures the wood gases that escape during normal combustion and forces them back down through the coals to re-combust in a separate chamber. That's where the "rocket flame" and 2000 F. heat is generated. Without that physical process in an ordinary wood boiler those gases escape up out the chimney even when burning full out, thus much lower efficiency of energy is extracted from the same amount of wood.