? On comparing flush wood inserts + install issues

[calsdad44]

Been quite a while since I've been here , but I'm hoping I can gain some knowledge from the forum.

I'm seriously looking at installing a wood-burning insert into my existing fireplace, and for a number of reasons what I want is a flush mount style, and I would prefer the "clean" look.

So far I've looked at the Regency Ci2700 - which I've seen retailing in the $4200 or so range.

I looked at the Osburn Matrix and Inspire - which both seem to be in the $3300 range

and I've looked at the Lopi Large Flush Next Gen Fyre (and the other one FRX or whatever that's the same thing) - my local dealer wants $5500 for this.

I know the Regency is a catalyst system and the other are not. The Lopi claims to one of the most efficient stoves out there. All three qualify for the 2020 tax rebates (which I would like to take advantage of).

I'm pretty sure I can get my hands on one of the Osburn units, the Regency -I'm not so sure, the dealer can't seem to confirm one way or the other ( will check other dealers) , and the Lopi/FRX unit is in stock at my local dealer for that $5500 price.

So - first question is: Are the higher priced units "worth it" ? More efficient, higher quality, ( I need to look at the warranty periods) - etc. ? There's about a $2000 difference between the Osburn and the Lopi/FRX - what is there that's worth $2000 more?

2nd question: Is the Regency cat unit worth choosing over the non-cat units? My understanding is that they're higher efficiency, cleaner , and easier to regulate down to a lower/longer burn (this is I think going to be important to me) . Are there any drawbacks? I've read thru a number of threads here and the biggest drawback I can see is that the glass on the door darkens. Not sure I care that much about that - I'm mainly interested in whatever I get for actually heating the house rather than ambiance.


My next problem is: the actual install. My existing fireplace chimney was rebuilt about 18 years ago from the foundation up - except they left the original firebox because it was in really good shape. The chimney - from all I can tell - in excellent shape still , and we have never (not even once) - used the fireplace. The problem is: the actual firebox is too small to fit any sort of insert in. Because of the layout and size of the living room - I really can't put a stove in there or even an insert that sticks out. There is stuff on either side of the fireplace location that would have to be protected with rather large heat shields - if I used anything but a flush type insert.

So - my thought is that - to make an insert install work, what I could do is guy the chimney , take out the masonry flue tile, and knock out the existing firebox and then have a new firebox built that would be large enough for an insert, then - instead of running flue tile again - just run a stainless flue up the chimney. Question is: would this type of install "work" - or be legal?

My father has a Vermont Castings Defiant stove that he installed back in 1975 - that has what amounts to a very similar install. The existing flue tiles and fireplace firebox were removed - a new metal structure was build into the fireplace and the flue goes out the back of the stove - into a 90 degree - and then a single wall stainless flue goes up thru the chimney to the cap. The whole chimney was filled with Vermiculite insulation - and it's been working well like that for 47 years. I'm thinking that a similar solution might work in my case - with the exception that a real firebox would have to be built to accomodate the insert.

Looking for any advice or opinions that would be helpful. Thanks!!

 

[begreen]

Let's start with the basics. Is this a full masonry fireplace or a zero-clearance, or a heatform style fireplace? What are the dimensions of the current fireplace? How large of an area would the insert be heating?

Pictures of the current setup are welcome.

 

[calsdad44]

Let's start with the basics. Is this a full masonry fireplace or a zero-clearance, or a heatform style fireplace? What are the dimensions of the current fireplace? How large of an area would the insert be heating?

Pictures of the current setup are welcome.

The current setup is a full masonry fireplace , it has Rumford-like dimensions. The front opening is 32 inches high and 30.5 inches wide. At the bottom the depth from the front face brick to the rear of the firebox is 16 inches and that tapers up to just 13 in at the top. The back face of the firebox is about 18 inches wide at the bottom - tapering to about 19 in at the top.

The intention is for the insert to put out enough heat for the living area of the house - which is about 1800 square feet. But the house is currently uninsulated. So I'm thinking a little bit larger is likely better.

I've looked at the dimensions of a number of inserts - and even the smaller ones won't fit. The image below is from the Lopi site with their minimum fireplace size for the Large Flush unit - and I'm missing on all of them except for the front opening dimensions

The Lopi Medium Flush unit is a little bit smaller - but still won't fit. (below image) - all of the other manufacturers I've looked at are similar dimensions. That's why I'm contemplating just busting out the firebox and getting a new one built

 

[bholler]

The current setup is a full masonry fireplace , it has Rumford-like dimensions. The front opening is 32 inches high and 30.5 inches wide. At the bottom the depth from the front face brick to the rear of the firebox is 16 inches and that tapers up to just 13 in at the top. The back face of the firebox is about 18 inches wide at the bottom - tapering to about 19 in at the top.

The intention is for the insert to put out enough heat for the living area of the house - which is about 1800 square feet. But the house is currently uninsulated. So I'm thinking a little bit larger is likely better.

I've looked at the dimensions of a number of inserts - and even the smaller ones won't fit. The image below is from the Lopi site with their minimum fireplace size for the Large Flush unit - and I'm missing on all of them except for the front opening dimensions

The Lopi Medium Flush unit is a little bit smaller - but still won't fit. (below image) - all of the other manufacturers I've looked at are similar dimensions. That's why I'm contemplating just busting out the firebox and getting a new one built

You don't nessecarily need a new firebox built as long as you have enough masonry thickness left when you remove yours.

 

[calsdad44]

You don't nessecarily need a new firebox built as long as you have enough masonry thickness left when you remove yours.

I have absolutely no idea what lies behind the firebricks if I was to remove them - nor do I know what the structure is that supports the masonry flue. So far I've talked to two dealers - and they both indicated that the wood burning inserts were "only certified if they were installed into an existing firebox". That would seem to indicate to me that they're designed in such a manner that the protection provided by the fireplace's firebox is an integral part of their design.

Looking at the depth requirements for some of the inserts I've been looking into - they typically seem to be looking for 19 - 20 " of depth . (see the images I posted above) The existing firebox I'm dealing with is Rumford-like and is only 16" deep at the bottom and tapers to just 13" at the top as it enters the damper. So even if I was to carefully remove all the firebrick from the existing firebox - I think I would still only gain about 2.5" (the thickness of the firebrick - they're installed on their sides). So I'm still 1/2" to 1.5" away from where I need to be - and that's not taking into account whatever structure lies behind that firebox - especially at the top - where it's only got that 13" depth.

That's why I'm thinking the existing firebox - whatever it is - probably needs to just be gutted out to the chimney walls and something new built in it's place.

 

[begreen]

Flush inserts have to put the firebox behind the surround which requires some depth. Otherwise, the firebox would be very shallow and impractical. It may be time to rethink the plan and see if a non-flush insert will work. A freestanding stove sitting out on the hearth a bit would provide more heat.

 

[calsdad44]

Flush inserts have to put the firebox behind the surround which requires some depth. Otherwise, the firebox would be very shallow and impractical. It may be time to rethink the plan and see if a non-flush insert will work. A freestanding stove sitting out on the hearth a bit would provide more heat.

The room that this is going into is relatively small - and has an existing hearth that meets the requirements of all of the flush inserts that I've looked at. I would really like to avoid ripping that hearth out and replacing it ..... and .... putting an insert in the spot that sticks out - means I have clearance issues with the things that are located on either side of the fireplace. Plus the wife just doesn't like the look of them. That's why I've been focused on a flush style insert. A free-standing stove is completely out of the question because of the amount of room it would take up as well as the modifications it would entail to the room to deal with the heat and clearance issues.

Long story short - I've thought this thru quite a bit and a flush insert is the best solution for the space I have to deal with. But there's the problem with the existing firebox being too small - so I'm trying to figure out a solution to deal with that. And just for more clarification : I'm not put off by major construction work. If I have to rip out the entire masonry flue and the firebox and put something else in it's place to make this work - then that's going to be the solution. What I'm really looking for is - what are my options once that original firebox is ripped out. Do I have to build another masonry firebox, can I build something out of steel and put in some refractory panels or something like that? Is it "legal" to put in a stainless single wall flue on an insert and then insulate the chimney around that with something like Thermix ?

 

[begreen]

The only flush inserts that will fit will likely be small. Lopi used to make a small flush that would have worked, but that is discontinued. The Regency CI 1150 might work. It is 15 1/8" deep. What is the depth at 22" high? If close, the upper back bricks could be ground out to accommodate the 15.25" depth at that point.

If a large heater is desired, then rather than rebuilding everything, I'd consider tearing out the existing one and putting a high-efficiency Zero Clearance fireplace in its place.

 

[calsdad44]

The only flush inserts that will fit will likely be small. Lopi used to make a small flush that would have worked, but that is discontinued. The Regency CI 1150 might work. It is 15 1/8" deep. What is the depth at 22" high? If close, the upper back bricks could be ground out to accommodate the 15.25" depth at that point.

If a large heater is desired, then rather than rebuilding everything, I'd consider tearing out the existing one and putting a high-efficiency Zero Clearance fireplace in its place.and

I have been looking into the zero clearance fireplaces as well. They seem like an option and I've found a couple that I believe *might* fit - if I remove the existing firebox. I've also started looking at the option of doing a full alcove install of a wood stove. It seems like what I really need to do - is gut the existing fireplace first and then I'll have a better idea of what space I have to work with as far as installing any of the options.