Ordered a P-68...nervous about installer though?

[bigeclipse]

All,
We went to our local stove retailer (there are not many around us and this one seems to have the best reviews). We ordered a Harman P-68. The stove cost installed will be $4400 dollars (which seems to be the most competitive price in our area). Here is my concern. The store is owned/run by a father/son team. They both came to our house to determine which model stove would be most suitable and how to best set it up...etc. We currently have a woodstove which is hooked up into a chimney in the center of the house. The chimney actually runs up through the middle of the house. The chimney was built specifically for the wood stove and I had thought it was lined with a 6 or 8in stove pipe all the way to the top (this stove and chimney was installed by professionals and built to code...etc back in the 90s). We want our pellet stove to take place of the wood stove as we really do not have much room to have both. We asked them if they could install it to the current chimney. They said yes. The father said "I think the pipe runs all the way up the chimney" and the son disagreed and said he didn't think so. Unfortunately the woodstove was burning so they could not disconnect to find out. I was not present during this but my wife brought up the fact I was worried about back drafting issues. The father then claimed well it does not matter whether the chimney has a pipe running up it or not as the P68 does not necessarily need a vent pipe running all the way up the chimney and the fact that the fact that the chimney is located in the center of the house (meaning the chimney stays warm) helps prevent back drafting coupled with the fact that the P68 has a vent blower negative pressure or whatever you call it...he claims there will be no issues. This worries me a bit as I thought that it was best practice to run pipe all the way up the chimney? I mean, this father/son team apparently knows what they are doing as they are the most popular stove installer around and have great reviews with little to no complaints. What are your thoughts?

 

[articcatbill]

When we had our P68 installed we had it vented into the old flu from our wood stove. We did not run a new liner clear to the top, it is a clay lined masonry flu. I specifically asked them about it, they said they would be glad to run a 4" insulated liner clear to the top of the flu, but it wasn't necessary. I asked them several questions concerning this topic and they assured me that there wouldn't be any issues. I have been burning it that way all winter and I have had no issues at all. No smoke smell, no CO readings all is well. I also trusted my installer, they were very knowledgable and install flus and are certified sweeps.

The only negative I found is some claim you might get smoke back in the house during a power outage. Where with a insulated liner you would get a better natural draft. I asked about that, they said if your home and have an outage just scrape your fire into the ash bucket and take it outside. Makes sense to me, I really think it keeps the flu warm enough that it wouldn't be an issue even if we were not at home during a power outage.

The only difference between our installs is ours is an external flu.

 

[Edward Hughes]

When we had our P68 installed we had it vented into the old flu from our wood stove. We did not run a new liner clear to the top, it is a clay lined masonry flu. I specifically asked them about it, they said they would be glad to run a 4" insulated liner clear to the top of the flu, but it wasn't necessary. I asked them several questions concerning this topic and they assured me that there wouldn't be any issues. I have been burning it that way all winter and I have had no issues at all. No smoke smell, no CO readings all is well. I also trusted my installer, they were very knowledgable and install flus and are certified sweeps.

The only negative I found is some claim you might get smoke back in the house during a power outage. Where with a insulated liner you would get a better natural draft. I asked about that, they said if your home and have an outage just scrape your fire into the ash bucket and take it outside. Makes sense to me, I really think it keeps the flu warm enough that it wouldn't be an issue even if we were not at home during a power outage.

The only difference between our installs is ours is an external flu.

I didn't see any oak (outside air kit) while reading your post. There are many harmen members
here that will have some help for ya. Good Luck

 

[johneh]

My stove is connected to a 6 in. wood stove insulated chimney
and have had no problems in the last 15 years
Brush it once a year to remove ash . still looks like
new inside

 

[bigeclipse]

You are

I didn't see any oak (outside air kit) while reading your post. There are many harmen members
here that will have some help for ya. Good Luck

correct about me not mentioning the OAK. Again they said it is not needed. It does help a little as far as not wasting heated air and simply having that air get wasted out the chimney but not needed. I'm not sure how we would even be able to do that as the stove will be in the middle of the house so if we wanted to have an OAK it would have to have at least 10ft of pipe to make it outside

 

[articcatbill]

We did not do an OAK either. I asked them about it, they basically said the same thing, they would be glad to install one, but not really necessary. We talked about it quite a bit. They said everyone that works at their shop (I guess 6-10 employees) have pellet stoves, none of them run an OAK.

One concern they had is they said they often service stoves with an OAK, and find the ash pan frozen to the floor. Basically their concern was the amount of cold air they let in when the stove is not in use. Said you can put a damper on them to help with that, but need to remember to open it up when firing up the stove.

So I figured I could add one later if I wanted. It does create negative pressure in the house when running.

I am sure that it increases efficiency, but our wood stove also moved air and created negative pressure. So I figured I would run it and decide from there for the future to install an OAK or not.

 

[bogieb]

One concern they had is they said they often service stoves with an OAK, and find the ash pan frozen to the floor.
.

Seriously? The only way I can think of this happening is if someone doesn't use their stove and somehow water gets into the stove. I've run my stoves in -20* temps and the ash pans never got cold, much less had the ability to freeze to the floor. Not to mention that the OAK does not go to the ash pan, but to the burn pot so that statement seems pretty silly to me.

That being said, you don't "have" to have an OAK if you don't want one - as long as your house isn't air tight, a trailer, or local codes don't require it).

 

[articcatbill]

Seriously? The only way I can think of this happening is if someone doesn't use their stove and somehow water gets into the stove. I've run my stoves in -20* temps and the ash pans never got cold, much less had the ability to freeze to the floor. Not to mention that the OAK does not go to the ash pan, but to the burn pot so that statement seems pretty silly to me.

That being said, you don't "have" to have an OAK if you don't want one - as long as your house isn't air tight, a trailer, or local codes don't require it).

When I was talking with them they did say that they have seen this, but they were referring to a stove that was not running. They weren't saying this could happen with a running stove. They were just relating the amount of cold air that can come in when you are not running the stove with an OAK installed. It really didn't effect my decision to install an OAK or not, since when it is cold enough to be an issue I plan on having the stove running. For me I just figured an OAK was something I could add later if I wanted.

Edit: Not sure I did a good job explaining above, let me take another crack at it. The point that they were making is if you have an OAK and are not using the stove on a cold day it can let cold air circulate through the stove making the physical stove cold. If the stove was in your living space it might be an issue for some people because of the stove itself being cold.

This wasn't a concern to me, but I could see for some people. Would be no different than how cold your dryer can be on the inside on a cold windy day, especially if the flap isn't sealing.

Anyhow that was the point that they were making. I know I read a thread out here on people having different ways to seal off their OAK when not using it. Of course if you are always running the stove when it is cold out then not an issue.

 

[Pete Zahria]

Seriously?

Agree....
I can't imagine that happening.

Dan

 

[Tails1]

I know my stove gets quite cold in the burn chamber in cold weather when not in use but to freeze the ash pan inside the cabinet there would have to be some serious frost buildup in there.

 

[alternativeheat]

Your install sounds fine. Harman doesn't require a stainless liner to the top of the chimney. You can look at several install scenarios online for the P series Harman's in PDF. If your chimney was unlined ( no clay liner) that is another matter. But yeah, you could run a stainless liner or just as well not, and incidentally you wouldn't need an insulated liner anyway, single wall would do if you did run one.

An OAK can be run down the chimney. Whether you need one or not is dependent also on the instructions ( Harman doesn't require one except in specific install situations, like mobile homes for instance). If you get a high drafty situation in your house an OAK might diminish that effect. If your house was modern construction and very tight you could starve other appliances in the house with the pellet stove running. It doesn't sound like you have that situation going on and I know you will love not having to tend it every 4 hours to maintain temp. Fill it at night before bed, maybe top it off in the morning when you get up, give the pot a scrape here and there with the stove running, meanwhile the temps never changed in the house ( once you get used to it's settings).

Congrats on the stove by the way ! I think you're gonna love it.

 

[chken]

...The father then claimed well it does not matter whether the chimney has a pipe running up it or not as the P68 does not necessarily need a vent pipe running all the way up the chimney and the fact that the fact that the chimney is located in the center of the house (meaning the chimney stays warm) helps prevent back drafting coupled with the fact that the P68 has a vent blower negative pressure or whatever you call it...he claims there will be no issues. ...?

I think the father is right and you should likely not have any issues.

 

[rona]

There is many homes that get by without a outside air kit. there is also many homes that use a clay lined chimney very successfully with no problem. They were made tall enough so they had natural draft and work quite well. I know of at least 4 around here that I helped a dealer install and have given no problems. You hear many stories about you have to follow the book but Harman recommends this method. I like using outside air kit if possible because you sometimes eliminate drafts in the house plus of course it is a waste to heat air only to blow it out via the exh system.