Outside Combustion Air Kits - Hampton, WHY NOT?!?!?!

[the_guad]

Hello All... My other post on the Hampton wood insert raised a question for me that I'm not smart enough to answer. Since I know that there are some really smart guys in this forum I'm hoping that someone will be able to answer this question.

Question - How do you know where the air is coming from to fire the combustion in your insert?

I've looked at some inserts (Vermont Castings I think) and I remember seeing a port that an outside air kit would hook directly to and I'm assuming that that is an extremely efficient way to get your fireplace to use outside air since you can essentially make your firebox airtight on the home side. But, I don't see that same type of port on the Hampton drawings or even on the Pacific Energy Summit. I can see on the Summit manual that in order to draw combustion air from the outside you need to seal the front surround and allow it to only draw air from the space around it in the hearth... but is that efficient?

Since a direct connection to the flue liner is a commonly accepted standard, how come it's not commonly accepted to directly connect the outside air kit to the air intake on the appliance?

Last Question - Would you let the lack of an outside air option stop you from buying an insert? Page 14 (First Fire) item 13 of the HI300 manual states that you need to supply enough fresh air to the fire, by possibly opening a window (and cooling your $4500 worth of heat that you just had installed), is there no other way???

Thanks all!

 

[JAred]

Hi there,
no it would not. I think alot of it depends on how tight your house is. Many new homes are of very tight construction and don't allow very much air to enter the home thru cracks ect... leaking will be enough to run your stove. I'm no expert but I have your stove your waiting for in a 1700 sqft house and it drafts wonderfully. My house has some leaky doors and windows so it's no big deal. Open fireplaces draw enourmous amounts of air to burn and run. The stove you are looking at draws very little air compared to an open fireplace if you did'nt have probs with burning your open fireplace than you should'nt have a problem at all with outside combustion air. I think the manual states you need an outside combustion air for code purposes... again no expert.... maybe elk knows the answer to outside air rules and regs?

 

[the_guad]

Thanks for the reply Jared. Unfortunately, I have tons of problems burning a fire in my open fireplace (old house, but apparently it's sealed up pretty tight). Hence the $4500 investment. That's why I'm a little concerned about this topic. All I can say is that if this only cost me $500 I wouldn't be worried about it. However, if I can feel a cold breeze on my couch from an open window, after spending all this money, I'll be sleeping in the doghouse and my wife will never let me forget it.

 

[JAred]

are we talking about a draft problem in the open fireplace?

 

[the_guad]

Yep. I have to open a door in order to get the smoke to draft up the chimney, even with a firestarter log.

 

[JAred]

others might like to know how big your flue is right now because if it is too big then it can be a pain to get a good draft going. wether it is inside the house or outside the house affects draft and also more importantly the length or height it is.all things to consider.

 

[the_guad]

Alright, one last post then off to bed. ;-) Actually, that's a great question since the guy that came out to inspect my hearth for size commented that the flue was big. I'm not sure how big, but I think it looks like an 8x8 opening at the top, maybe bigger (it's hard to tell from the ground).

 

[the_guad]

Oh yeah, PS: You could not have found a nicer insert for that hearth. It looks like you designed one with the other in mind. Congrats.

 

[JAred]

the slate is new on top of the exsiting brick I set it all and wrestled that heavy insert in. I used a floor jack it get it up to the height of the hearth. The thing is soo heavy I tried not to mess my new slate up...I damaged 3 tiles in the proccess and had to replace them.

 

[elkimmeg]

I read the manual again you are not required an outside air kit If a kit were required there would be some knockout hole or adapter. The manual mentions nothing. Inside air fulfills your requirements. Again I repeat require the damper to be metal block plated and sealed. And I was right full length liner is required per Manufacture specs.
There are a lot of conditions that a fireplace may not work well. Placement of the Damper in respect to the fire box and curbature flue too large to draw. That does not mean you full liner 6" insert will take on the characteristics of your existing chimney. Its a whole different animal with it own requirements.

Post back some important facts: guess the length of your chimney, is it straight up no jogs the clay flue size? The amount it extends beyond your roof? Are you in a valley, big trees near by or hills? Is the chimney 2 or more feet higher than any part of the structure within 10 feet? Is the chimney exposed to the outside?.


To an extent and Dan East chime in here, outside air really acts as a pressure equalization. Think of outside air as a resort if things are not functioning right. To some extent outside air can have a reverse effect on you stove depending which direction the wind is comming from. It will work when the outlet is facing the wind but if on the opposite side of the house, The wind hits your home circles around it and actually creates a vacum on the opposite side. That vacum effect can actually draw air out of the stove.. One solution is to divide up outside air inlets to two sides of the house Preventing the vacume effect. If you report back with the info about your current setup many here will have some recomendations or re assurances

 

[the_guad]

I just found my chimney report from the last time it was repaired.

My chimney is 20' tall (external) and I think it's 2' taller than anything within 10' but it's shorter than the tallest peak of the house. It is a two story townhome and the family room has a vaulted ceiling with no rooms above it. It is straight except for right above the damper where it jogs a little. I have huge trees all around the house and the wind comes from the side of the house, not the front (chimney is on the front slightly facing the wind) or back. The flue is 13x13.

Thanks everyone. I'm getting a lot of views on this thread and I appreciate everyone chiming in.

 

[the_guad]

I wanted the Summit insert because it's the biggest (as far as I could find) but my wife wanted something more attractive, so Hampton it is... I think.

 

[Willhound]

I wanted the Summit insert because it's the biggest (as far as I could find) but my wife wanted something more attractive, so Hampton it is... I think.

Ya know, you're about the third or fourth person on here that has made a comment like that, and usually by "more attractive" the ladies (and some men, to be fair) seem to think that they need something with more fillagree, curlicues, bends, arches etc. To each their own taste, but in my opinion, that's just more nooks and crannies to have to dust and clean. Also, what is "in" as a design look today can be "out" just as fast in a year from now, and I don't think anyone plans on switching inserts on a yearly basis.

I think I'm very lucky that my missus thought that the clean uncluttered look of the Summit suited her, and she also did mention the less cleaning part, so in my opinion, it helped that we got everything we wanted...a very efficient heater, and one we liked the looks of.

Now, that being said, you folks have to live with it and look at it every day, so if it pleases you, go for it.

But, please, please, please do not buy something just because it "looked cute" in a victorian design magazine.....

 

[elkimmeg]

The 2' higher 10 away code is minimal code requirement there are times when even when it is code compliant the extension is not enough. There is a guy on this forum that has done extensive research I addressing these concerns ( extendaflue got your ears on). There are times when I had to go back and add a few feet to a compliant setup to improve the draft. The 13 /13 clay flue are call modular flues used for larger fire box openings At times they comply with code but can actually hinder your draft. Too large an area to heat up. Your large trees also could be affecting your draft capabilities. Even down wind the blanches and shape of the trees can deflect the wind and change directions. Having a peak higher also deflects wind and causes it to react differently. If any of the external factors alter your draft inside air is not the issue.
The insert will have its own separate liner so no heating an oversize flue. Because there is an oversized flue located with exposed walls. I would recommend that your liner be insulated. There is no way to tell if your stove will duplicate the existing fireplace and flue line draft problems. Maybe Extendaflue can shed light on the merits of flue extensions and termination caps

 

[the_guad]

It's not just the design, but the enamel and color that we wanted. If we put a black cast iron insert into the room it will really stick out. I'm not sure if it will stick out more than our black hearth, but at least that's recessed. I guess I should be more upfront with my concerns...

1) How do I know where the point of dimishing returns is when I'm burning room air and having to open a window to allow more fresh air in? Boy I wish I was Mr. Wizard right now.

 

[Sandor]

Ya just gotta like Frank. Tellin' it the way it is. (uh, or should be)

And Frank's air infiltration comments are right on.

 

[the_guad]

Hmm... I don't think I'm going to play the man card on this one. That's a great way to look at it though Frank. I hadn't considered that the house was going to draw it what it needed whether or not I had a window cracked. Thanks for the comments.

 

[Todd]

Check this out

(broken link removed to http://www.condar.com/asv.html)

Fireplaces consume huge amounts of air compared to a stove or insert. If you still have problems with draft and smoke, maybe you could try one of these air supply ventilators. It helped me since my stove was competing with my dryer, water heater, and bathroom fan.

 

[the_guad]

I got a response back from the dealer that an outside combustion air kit is required for the HI300 and I think I see why. On page 18 of the manual look at part 36, the ends fit into an open space in the side of the stove, I think that's where it's drawing air from the hearth.

EVERYONE CROSS YOUR FINGERS FOR ME I just found out that I can go buy one down the street and get it installed on Tuesday. I'm going to run down there and buy it before they go away...

 

[the_guad]

The purchase has been made, the delivery and install scheduled. Looks like I'll be getting my insert next week... just in time for winter to get started back up. Man it's cold today...

 

[the_guad]

So the insert came today... two guys had a real heck of a time getting it into the family room. There was only 1 step for them to get over, but man oh man it didn't look fun. In the interests of protecting my investment I had to help them with the tough stuff like getting it off of the dolly and onto the floor. The installer is coming tomorrow morning.. WOOHOO!

So that strong smell coming from it is the firebrick... right? I'm guessing that that will go away after they bricks have cured over the course of a few fires.

 

[JAred]

She'll stink to high heaven for the first few burns. Open a window so you don't knock your self out. It will Smell like a new car engine getting warm for the first few times.

Did you go with one the enamel colors?

Combustion air is drawn in on the sides of the unit in between the door frame and the two filler pieces on the sides parts 6 and 1 on page 18. The only reason I know this Because I too was curious on how combustion air was getting to my stove. and thus did the cigarette test on it. With the fan off I noticed some going thru the fan intakes as well. All the pieces that make up the front of the unit don't seal the stove completely in the fireplace; Therefor allowing fresh air to the intakes on the side of the firebox.

Let see some pics when you get it installed!

Also I hope you'll find the draft control rod easy to use. even with the rod pushed all the way in the damper is still open enough to feed the secondary air tubes at the top of the firebox. so Don't be afraid to dampe-r-down to get those long burns!

 

[the_guad]

I'm waiting for my 9AM install slot. However, it's intermittently raining so we'll see what happens. Here's a pic of our Timberline Brown HI300, pre install and just sitting in the family room patiently waiting.

 

[the_guad]

So my luck ran out. They relined the chimney, cut in the outside air vent, fitted the flue collar and as they were going to put the insert into the hearth, the right side cast piece fell off. I've attached pictures of the piece and the welds that were holding it together. I'm not a welder, but I think that they just tacked the piece on and forgot to weld it properly. The right side broke off and I included a copy of the left side welds just for reference.

Good thing for me that the store I bought it from has another in stock. They'll be delivering it tomorrow morning but I'll now have to wait till Saturday to get the install finished. AGGGHHHHH!

PS. The JPE pictures should be viewable with your Windows Picture and Fax Viewer.

 

[JAred]

tuff luck man, Being a welder of sorts I thought mine was welded quite nice. QC guy must have been on vacation.