Pacific Energy Super Insert, over fired? (I know, another thread...)

[sigepsb]

I know this gets asked a lot, but bear with me, there's a couple extra details I couldn't find in the other posts. I had a PE Super Insert put in a couple months ago and there's some things I like and don't like. My other stoves (at cabin) are freestanding Napoleons and there's been a bit of a learning curve adapting to this new one. The PE has way better glass wash and a cleaner burn, but even when I shut down early and pay attention, it likes to take off compared to the Napoleons, with the same wood.

I use an IR gun to take temperatures at three spots. 1) I shoot upwards at the glass, pointing at the baffle 2) I shoot the center above the door 3) I shoot each side, above the door. So far the center of the door (#2) is usually about 100 degrees higher than the sides (#3), above the door. Shooting through the glass at the baffle (#1) usually reads 100 degrees over that.

I've noticed you must really let this stove burn WAY down before adding more wood. Last night I wanted to add before going to bed. It was a little sooner than usual, but the temp in spot 1 was somewhere just over 400 degrees. I didn't take it above the door (#2), but usually that would have meant it was a little over 300 degrees there. There was a large coal bed, so I added two large splits of red/coastal live oak and a smaller round of almond on top. The wood was very dry (6%) when I checked it in October and has been covered since. Probably, should have burned the coals down more.

I left the air all the way up until it caught and gradually backed it down to closed, probably over the next 10 or 15 minutes, checking the temp in spot 1 each time. I had it all the way closed, by 550 or 600 degrees in position 1 (so, it was probably 450-ish over the door, though I didn't shoot that spot). Over the next several minutes or so it just kept taking off fast, even all the way closed. When it finally got to about 740 or 750 in spot #1 I opened the door wide to break the draft. I shot spot # 2, just before I did this and it was about 640 degrees above the door. That seemed to stop the temperature climb with all the cool air rushing in, but I looked up and the rear rail and rear parts of the side rails were faintly glowing. That's never happened before. The baffle did not seem to be glowing, but it looked like it could possibly be glowing inside, looking through the secondary holes?!? Not sure about that. I now notice that you can just see the stove collar through where the blower air comes out, but I did not know that at the time and did not check the stove collar. One weird thing I noticed was that one log was a little too close to the primary air holes and I saw one or two them that were right next to the end of the log shoot little flames, as the log outgassed, almost like a weak little secondary burn. Is that EVER supposed to happen with primaries?!? Looks like a little weak pilot light.

The fire was still raging with the door open, so I put in a couple wet newspapers and that cooled it off fairly quickly to a normal fire, as they dried and burned up. Once that was handled I closed the door and it burned overnight normally.

Today I raked the coals forward and burned them down with small, individual splits of really dry pine. After the stove had cooled down to under 200 degrees above the door, I started a new fire with three pieces of pine that I use during the day sometimes when its warmer out. I would swear I am not getting anywhere near as many flames out of the secondaries as usual, and I seem to be getting more some smoke out the chimney, where I would normally have nothing but heat waves. Seems like rolling flames, but not many jets of flame from the secondaries, as normal. I also thought I briefly saw some secondary action from the rear of the baffle near the pin and think I may have seen that last night when it was running real hot. I don't see anything weird about the baffles or rail (warping, sagging)- they look just like after the first fire. Did I overfire the stove? Did something get ruined in the baffles, where its not burning as clean now? I'm much more cautious and attentive with this stove compared to the Napoleons, as it seem to run hotter, but apparently not cautious enough this time.Thanks.

 

[prezes13]

I don't thing you overfired your stove. You had it kind of hot. I get little antsy when I see 450 above the door on my insert but I know that's not dangerous hot yet. As far as your other dilemma see if the tubes got pluged with something.

 

[sigepsb]

Thanks for the response. After I burn the last of the coals down with this pine (and after it cools off a bit) I'm going to have a fire with oak or almond and see what happens. If its still smoking I'll let it cool down and take it apart this weekend. One of the pieces of pine had a knot. Maybe it was a bit pitchy and that was causing it?

Doesn't look like there's any tube to clog up on the PE baffle, unless the baffle is removed and liner swept, if I'm understanding the design correctly?

On a positive note, the primary air design is way smarter on these. Burns the coals down nice and doesn't get ash in it.

 

[Dix]

I've seen my baffle glow red. Temp on the thermo over the right hand side of the door read 750F +.I was alittle concerned, to say the least

The stove can put out some serious heat with seasoned firewood

You were burning pine when this happened???


Welcome to the forums !!

 

[Grisu]

I would forget about measuring temps from the baffle. Reading through the glass with flames all over the place (which of course also radiate heat) I would be surprised if you get any meaningful temps there. I also have the Super insert and measure the spot centrally above the door from maybe 2" to 3" away. With some testing I found that this spot is about 100 F lower than the insert's top during the early burn and about 50 F lower in the later stages. Thus, I usually try to stay under 700 F there but have seen spikes to about 750 F occasionally. Fully closing the air and turning the blower up usually resolved that quickly. With the temps you report from that spot I doubt that you were already overfiring the stove. Your missing secondaries today may be from letting the stove cool down more than usual or closing the air faster due to your experience the day before.

Primary air holes: Do you mean the boost air channel in the bottom behind the door? I have seen them going crazy like secondaries when loading dry pine. It is supposed to help with getting the wood hot faster but I've found it more a nuisance and harder to control the fire when using dry wood. I pulled the channel up and stuffed some leftover gasket in the supply hole. Since then my insert reacts much better to the air control. Most of the primary air comes from the top over the door.

I think your main problem was that you loaded the wood directly on hot coals in a still hot stove. When the wood is as dry as you say that can quickly lead to a very strong fire. I suggest the following:
First, rake all the coals to the front. Load 1 or 2 short pieces E-W behind the coal pile which creates an even layer. Load more wood N-S on top until you almost reach the baffle or less if you want less heat. With the door slightly ajar, wait until the wood has ignited. I open the door up a bit again for a minute or two to get a good fire going, then close the door. Since I have a pretty strong draft, I reduce the air by about 1/4 very soon, can be less than a minute after closing the door. Usually, I also see some secondaries already in the top. Gradually, I close the air over the next 5 to 10 minutes simply by looking at the fire and making sure I don't snuff it out by keeping the secondaries firing. When the spot over the door (your #2) is over 400 F when the air is fully closed I am usually sure that the secondaries will keep going and the insert will settle in around 600 F to 650 F some time later.

 

[Sean Truesdell]

I have had the same issue a few times now with my Summit insert. The first time it occurred it was some time after I had already closed the primary air, maybe 45-60 minutes later! I was under the impression that once I closed the primary the fire would burn at a consistent pace but have seen it several times now where the fire goes nuts long after I have closed the primary. A large part of my problem is my random collection of scrounged wood that constitutes my fuel, it is a mixture of hard woods that measure anywhere from 15 - 25% on the MM. This variable makes it difficult to manage the fire in the early stages and on these occasions I allowed the wood to burn too long before beginning to close the primary air down. I'm glad Grisu chimed in about the "boost air channel" on the bottom behind the door. I was under the assumption those holes were for the primary air, seeing flames coming out of there had my heart rate way up that night. Here's a couple pics of mine the first night it happened .

 

[Dix]

That's what it's supposed to look like.

Seriously.

 

[begreen]

From what I'm reading this was not an overfire, just a very hot fire. Close the air down sooner, burn the coal bed down and wait later before reloading, and try larger splits for a slower burn.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

You didn't over fire. Put the IR gun down and trust your gut.

 

[Hogwildz]

Congratulations on your choice of a mighty fine stove. And congratulations on achieving the burn as it should be in this stove.
Your fears, although normal for just starting to burn the stove, will calm as you get used to the stove. And in time, you will understand the stove, and the way this stove burns.
Your temps are fine, and as stated, put the IR gun down, and enjoy the greatness of burn & the heat the PE puts out.

If you reload at 200 or below, it will smoke until it gets back up to temp. Especially with pine, as it has a good amount of resin in it. No big deal, it is not as bad as you are imagining.
In time, you will know and appreciate even more, what this well built stove does, and can do.

As stated, if the wood is dry, PE stoves love large splits, and have no problem making heat out of them, efficiently.
For overnight burns, put large on bottom, and fill in on top with mediums & smalls.

I can tell you, when you are loading and looking at the splits and size, many folks will calculate how long the splits will burn , and in these stoves in my experience, you'll get 2-3 hrs or more longer burn time than you initially calculate. Depending on the load, species and how dry it is. Patience is a must, as these stoves burn damn long for a non cat, and the urge to reload too soon, is hard to resist at times.

Congrats & enjoy.

 

[sigepsb]

Thanks for the replies. Ironically I never used the IR gun until I got this one. Slowly, step away from the IR gun...

DTDEH, I was using red oak and almond last night when it happened. The pine was today and it was a smokier than usual, but I think Grisu has a good theory that I may have run it too cool today after yesterday. I have some red/coastal oak I bought and then all the free pine I can handle, so I try and use it during the day or to burn coals down. I have 40 acres up north with lots off dead standing pine that needs to be taken out. The fact that its been standing, that I split it over a year ago, and our drought means its real dry. The red oak I got from the tree guy down the road. He said its about 2 or 3 years old and my cheap moisture meter wouldn't even read it, it was so low. I had to have someone (industrial hygenist) with an expensive one check it for me. 6% back in Oct.

Sean, that's exactly what it looked like. I'm not sure if that's the first time it ever happened or I just chose to notice it during this event, but that sure is what I was talking about.

Thanks for your replies and, thanks Hog, for all the old posts you took the time on about PE stoves. I poured through a whole bunch of them.

I'll keep my eye on the smoke thing, but sounds like I should be fine.

 

[hamsey]

but I think Grisu has a good theory that I may have run it too cool today after yesterday.

This is what I did for a few days after getting the heart rate up with what I thought was an overfire. Give it a bit and you will get the confidence back.

 

[sigepsb]

Thanks for all the advice. Filled it with red oak/almond tonight and it seems to be just fine. Must have been the pine and me being cautious causing the smoke. It got fairly hot again tonight, but after reviewing more of Hogwildz, and a couple other member's post, I think this is just where this brand of stove likes to run. Mine is behaving identical to what they describe and no one has had any problems. Just need to get used to it running a bit hotter than my other stoves.

The primaries were definitely still working: (broken link removed to https://picasaweb.google.com/102856565833202429094/PacificEnergy?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCPzWk6y8v4qNcg&feat=directlink)