Part 5 of Mega-Query: Thermo-Control, Circ. Fans and Step Top vs. Enamel Stoves

[TruePatriot]

Part 5 of Mega-Query: Thermostatically-Controlled Air Intakes, Circulation Fan Size and and Step Top vs. Enamel Stoves

The above subhead lists the topics in this section of my Which Woodstove to Get? series.

Please see this link for specs. on the house, etc…, if you need to clarify something: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/6812/


Thermo.-controlled Air Intake
As far as I know, of the stoves we’re looking at, only the P.E. has this feature (part of what they call their Extended Burn Technology or “EBT”). I must say the idea is very appealing to me. I like the fact that as fuel is consumed, the draft can automatically open itself, to accelerate the burn which would otherwise simply decrease. I could see how this could lead to more complete combustion and more smoothly-regulated output.

How important do folks feel this feature is?

Also, re: this feature on the P.E. Summit, I understand that this thermo.-controlled draft is only for the secondary burn. So…what is the practical effect of having only the secondary burn thermostatically-controlled? IOW, does this mean that it doesn’t actually provide a higher heat output in the primary burn, across the duration of an overnight loading, than a non-thermo.-controlled stove?

In other words, if I close my draft down too much for the wood I loaded, at night, will the P.E. be no better at consuming that fuel than would any of the non-thermostatically-controlled stoves? Or, will the thermostatically-controlled secondary burn draft actually maintain a higher primary burn rate so that, if the wood holds out, I might see flames in the morning, and not just coals?

What other steel stoves have a thermostatically controlled air intake?

Circulation Fans: Noise vs. Effectiveness
Noise and output are what concern me. Regarding noise, I would much prefer an infinitely-variable circ. fan, that I could run as quietly as possible, depending upon conditions. To my knowledge, these are the only stoves with truly infinitely-variable fan speed controls (of the five I’m considering):

Country Canyon ST310—Infinitely variable, 700 CFM
Lopi Liberty--
Quadra-fire 5700--
Napolean 1900—Infinitely-variable,
P.E. Summit “Classic”—IS IT infinitely variable? Factory rep says “yes.” 125 CFM

To my knowledge, all but the Country use squirrel cage fans. A Country dealer who struck me as the most honest, knowledgeable, least pushy (as in, NOT pushy at all) sales rep. I ever had the pleasure to meet, told me that the Country’s fan, because it is a conventional type, (not a squirrel cage) is the quietest in the industry. Country’s literature claims that their fan is “…far quieter when compared to any other (stove) at their highest setting”.

My thinking is, that since I want, in my “Phase II,” to construct my large, heat-transfer ductwork thingy, that it might be worthwhile to have a wood stove with a 700 CFM fan as opposed to, say, a 125 CFM blower. Any thoughts on this, or on Country’s claim to have the quietest fan design?

I am willing to consider cutting in registers in,vc if need be, in order to “stick it to ‘The Man’.” LOL


Step-top Versatility vs. Beautiful Enamel Looks
Part of the rational for getting the wood stove is emergency survival. We want to be able to cook, in a power outage. If this were not the case, I would be much more into one of the two enameled stoves. (While this may seem extreme, upstate, where my cottage is, went for weeks without power, due to an ice storm, some years ago…. And it can happen anywhere in NYS.)

I am making some assumptions about Step Top stoves. Please feel free to comment upon any erroneous assumptions I have, such as:

I'm assuming that most step top stoves offer two different, but usable, cooking temperatures?

I'm assuming at least one of the two steps on such stoves will actually boil water, while the other may not?

I was told by the factory rep. for P.E. that it was not feasible to cook upon the Summit Classic, as the stove has a second top bolted to it, to give the enamel a rounded, more pleasing contour. The rep. added that some owners have taken the top off, for cooking, but that this would be impractical in a power emergency, as the stove would have to cool for 10 hours, and possibly have to be placed on its back or moved, if one did not have clearance to get to the rear bolts. (I’m sure I could get to them, but who wants to do this, really?)

The P.E. rep suggested having custom cooking pans fabbed up at a local shop, to fit the space made available by removing the trivet on the top of the stove, which is approx. 6” deep by a width obviously less than the width of the stove. I am not averse to that, but I’d like to know:

a) Do the P.E. Summit Classic and Napolean even get hot enough to boil water, on their enameled tops?

b) Do the P.E. Summit Classic and Napolean get hot enough to boil water, , in their trivet areas, with the grates removed?

c) What actual temps. do you guys and gals get, both on the enameled tops of these two stoves, and with the grates removed?

d) What actual temps do you see on EACH of the two step tops, on:
i) The Country Canyon 310
ii) Quadra-fire 5700
iii) Lopi Liberty

e) The Napolean dlr. says there is an alum. plate that replaces the trivet, expanding the cooking area approx. 1.5” on at least two sides. The theory is that it will conduct heat up from the single-walled area the trivet grate was covering, giving a hotter, larger “cook top” area. I’ve never seen one of these in person, on the web or in a brochure, but he says they exist. Has anyone used one? Do they work? Are they available? Where? How much? Has anyone used one? Do they work? Are they available? Where? ? How much? Has anyone cooked with one?

Thanks again,

Peter
>

 

[jtp10181]

We have quite a few quad stoves in our show room that are burnable. About the hottest you want to get it without possible damage to the unit is 400-500 degrees.... can you biol water on that, heh? Had a customer with a 3100 millennium that tipped the scale on the thermometer on the top of his stove. He was burning it over 600 degrees, possibly up near 800! And that's the 3100, I would imagine the 5700 could get just as hot up there. We tend to sell more "millennium" (flat top) stoves in my area than step top.

Quad 5700 Blower - it is a variable speed blower.... you could turn it down to the point where it is barley moving if I remember correctly. Even with the blower on max on the 3100 the noisiest part is all the air moving. Very quiet blower IMO.

 

[elkimmeg]

Blaze kings are thermoatically controled and bost 82% effeciencies with 700 cmf blowers

 

[BrotherBart]

I have cooked a few times on the stove during power failures. It is cute and cool and stuff but a thirty dollar propane campstove is easier and makes a hell of a lot more sense. Easier than cracking enamel or scratching paint too.

 

[Roospike]

I have cooked a few times on the stove during power failures. It is cute and cool and stuff but a thirty dollar propane campstove is easier and makes a hell of a lot more sense. Easier than cracking enamel or scratching paint too.

DING! DING! DING! ...........We have a winner!

Vey well put BB. With power outage i would use a camp stove or BBQ grill. The last thing i would use is a woodstove , but that just me. ( and BB )

 

[begreen]

If we are without power for a month and the Martians take over the power and fuel distribution grid, then we can cook on our stove. But my wife much prefers the propane cooktop in the kitchen. It is so much more convenient than going into the living room to cook.

 

[TruePatriot]

jtp:

Re:

We have quite a few quad stoves in our show room that are burnable. About the hottest you want to get it without possible damage to the unit is 400-500 degrees.... can you biol water on that, heh? Had a customer with a 3100 millennium that tipped the scale on the thermometer on the top of his stove. He was burning it over 600 degrees, possibly up near 800! And that’s the 3100, I would imagine the 5700 could get just as hot up there. We tend to sell more “millennium” (flat top) stoves in my area than step top.

Definitely that will boil NYS water! LoL But you prompted a question--what is the "do not exceed" temp of a Quad 5700? Honestly, 400-500F sounds a little low to me, in that I think my friend said that his Mansfield (soapstone) was good for 600F. I would have thought the steel 5700 could take more? Or is the difference that the Quad is a convection stove, (i.e., the inner skin is much hotter than the stove top?) and the Mansfield is a radiant model?

I am very happy to know this:

Quad 5700 Blower - it is a variable speed blower.... you could turn it down to the point where it is barley moving if I remember correctly. Even with the blower on max on the 3100 the noisiest part is all the air moving. Very quiet blower IMO.

That's great news! Thanks.
>

Elk: I wish more stoves had thermostats, like the Blaze King--that really seems like one killer stove. Wish I liked cat stoves more....
>

BrotherBart (and RooToo):

Re: this:

BrotherBart - 27 February 2007 10:24 PM
I have cooked a few times on the stove during power failures. It is cute and cool and stuff but a thirty dollar propane campstove is easier and makes a hell of a lot more sense. Easier than cracking enamel or scratching paint too.

DING! DING! DING! ...........We have a winner!

Vey well put BB. With power outage i would use a camp stove or BBQ grill. The last thing i would use is a woodstove , but that just me. ( and BB )

Upon further consideration, (and it pains me to say this, BB... J/K) I'd have to agree with you. Unless, of course, the **** hits the rotary induction device in some major way, as BeGreen (and I) are considering. Like, after the first month, there's no more propane to get your camp stove's tank refilled, given the widespread anarchy. But I guess, in that case, I'd have bigger problems than where to cook--like what to cook. Okay, the cookin' on the stove thing's probably more "romantic" than practical--I admit it. I do like that it conserves energy, though, as opposed to burning propane but I guess, in the big picture, that's a small consideration.


BeGreen:

When you put it this way, it hits home:

If we are without power for a month and the Martians take over the power and fuel distribution grid, then we can cook on our stove. But my wife much prefers the propane cooktop in the kitchen. It is so much more convenient than going into the living room to cook.

Of course, if one's propane tank is empty/stolen, etc..., it'd be more convenient to "cook in the livingroom" than scrounge propane. 'Specially if the Martians (Neocons?) are angry....
>

To All:

Step-top Versatility vs. Beautiful Enamel Looks

We've pretty much dispensed with the cooking-on-the-stovetop thing, but I am still curious on a couple of points:

Do most step top stoves offer two different, but usable, cooking temperatures?

I was told by the factory rep. for P.E. that it was not feasible to cook upon the Summit Classic, as the stove has a second top bolted to it, to give the enamel a rounded, more pleasing contour. The rep. added that some owners have taken the top off, for cooking.

I'm still curious to know:

a) Do the P.E. Summit Classic and Napolean 1900 even get hot enough to boil water, on their enameled tops?

b) Do the P.E. Summit Classic and Napolean 1900 get hot enough to boil water, in their trivet areas, with the trivet/grates removed?

c) What actual temps. do you guys and gals get, both on the enameled tops of these two stoves, and with the trivet/grates removed?

d) What actual temps do you see on EACH of the two step tops, on the Country Canyon ST310?

e) The Napolean dlr. says there is an alum. plate that replaces the trivet, expanding the cooking area approx. 1.5” on at least two sides. The theory is that it will conduct heat up from the single-walled area the trivet grate was covering, giving a hotter, larger “cook top” area. I’ve never seen one of these in person, on the web or in a brochure, but he says they exist. Has anyone used one? Do they work? Are they available? Where? How much?

I guess I should have asked if there were even any Napolean 1900 owners here, but I'll ask now--are there any?

Thanks again,

Peter

 

[Gunner]

a) Do the P.E. Summit Classic and Napolean 1900 even get hot enough to boil water, on their enameled tops?

b) Do the P.E. Summit Classic and Napolean 1900 get hot enough to boil water, in their trivet areas, with the trivet/grates removed?

Yes, you can boil water in a pot on the enameled top, but the stove will have to be cranking for quite a while...cranking to me is 700* or more measure on the steel plate under the enamel.

 

[elkimmeg]

Water can be boiled I agree with gunner but does one know what boiling watter does to enamal if it boils over the top. Unfortunately this happened to my prior Blue enamal stove.
My wife put in some pouporie ( sp) well it did not react well with the water and boiled over the boiling watter hits a 500 dregree enamal surface and there is an instant 300 degre difference instant shok to the enamal A day later cleaning off the surface and little like ice o pellets started comming off but they were enamal pellets Damn it ruined a good looking stove rendering it ugly. I purchased a new top which led tojust about a total rebuild of the stove. I would rathe boil water on a griggle top of painted castiron /steel stove. I will not make that mistake again

 

[Gunner]

Good point elk. I don't know what difference it would make but with the VC the stove body itself is enameled where the PE it is the outer shroud that is enameled. It doesn't get near as hot but it still would not be good thing to have a boil over. Also the trivot area(PE version of a griddle) is not enameled it is nickel or gold or painted black.

 

[TruePatriot]

Gunner:

Re: this:

a) Do the P.E. Summit Classic and Napolean 1900 even get hot enough to boil water, on their enameled tops?

b) Do the P.E. Summit Classic and Napolean 1900 get hot enough to boil water, in their trivet areas, with the trivet/grates removed?

Yes, you can boil water in a pot on the enameled top, but the stove will have to be cranking for quite a while...cranking to me is 700* or more measure on the steel plate under the enamel.

I have yet to see a P.E. in the flesh, so maybe that's why I'm about to ask what is probably a dumb question, but how do you get the temp. reading off of the steel plate under the enamel--by removing the trivet plate thingy?

And it prompts more questions--

If the temp. of the steel under the enameled, (cast?) plate is 700F, what is the temp. on top of the enameled plate, during a normal burn? During a "cranking" burn?

What is the "do not exceed" temp. on top of the enamel, where one would stick a magenetic thermometer?


Elk:

Re: this:

Water can be boiled I agree with gunner but does one know what boiling watter does to enamal if it boils over the top. Unfortunately this happened to my prior Blue enamal stove.
My wife put in some pouporie ( sp) well it did not react well with the water and boiled over the boiling watter hits a 500 dregree enamal surface and there is an instant 300 degre difference instant shok to the enamal A day later cleaning off the surface and little like ice o pellets started comming off but they were enamal pellets Damn it ruined a good looking stove rendering it ugly. I purchased a new top which led tojust about a total rebuild of the stove. I would rathe boil water on a griggle top of painted castiron /steel stove. I will not make that mistake again

Holy Crap! That sucks!

Has anyone spilled water on a P.E. Summit Classic, or a Napolean 1900? If so, what happened?

Gunner:

Your point here is well-taken:

Good point elk. I don’t know what difference it would make but with the VC the stove body itself is enameled where the PE it is the outer shroud that is enameled. It doesn’t get near as hot but it still would not be good thing to have a boil over. Also the trivot area(PE version of a griddle) is not enameled it is nickel or gold or painted black.

I guess that's another reason why I'd be interested in the actual temps you get on the enamel, and with the trivet removed, right down on the steel surface.

Have you ever considered getting custom, stainless pans fabbed up, to fit down inside the trivet area, as the factory lady suggested to me? Just curious about people's thoughts on that.

And lastly, would any Napolean 1900 or Country Canyon ST310 owners step forward, if you're here? I feel like a dork talking about these two stoves, when I have yet to see anyone hear owning either one! LOL

Thanks all,

Peter

 

[Gunner]

The magnetic thermo will sit right under the trivot do to it's "stand off" and you can read it without removing the trivot.

I have never taken a temp on the enameled surface, I measure on the stovetop under the trivot and in the doublewall pipe. I have pegged the thermo a few times without issue but I think 800 or so max continuous is as hot as I would go.

(broken image removed)

 

[TruePatriot]

Gunner:

Thanks for the pic and the explanation about how you get the temp readings under the cast, enameled cover.

In a PE, are there three stove walls on top, or two? IOW, the PE is a convenction stove, with "heat shields" on, presumably, the sides and back, (and possibly the bottom?).

But, on the top of the stove, is there a single plate of steel, covered by the decorative, bolt-on, cast/enameled piece, or is there another layer, a "heat shield" (like on the sides) in addition to these two, on top?

Lastly, I recall someone saying the top plate on a PE Summit was 3/8" thick--is that for real? Pretty impressive, if so.

Thanks again.
>

Gunner and Elk:

I'd like to start a new thread on the issue of porcelein enamel damage due to waterspills. Since you two have already commented or relayed some experience with this, here, I am going to transplant your brief comments from here to a new thread, so that people will know what the thread is about by a new title, instead of me hijacking my own thread here. I trust you guys won't mind this?

Thanks again,

Peter

 

[Gunner]

If you go to PE website and click on the manual there is an exploded view of the stove. Basically it is like every other steel stove, but has the addition of a stamped? steel shroud that is enameled surrounding the firebox. There is two layers, the wall of the firebox + the emameled shroud.

Not everyone will agree about convection and radiant stoves but this is definately a convec stove IMO, there is very little radiant heat, except threw the glass. The proof is in the 4" clearance to combustables.

I am truly amased at how cool certain areas of the stove can be considering how hot it is inside. The area underneath the stove actually stays cool, out until about 6" infront of the stove where the heat comes threw the glass. I never wear gloves when operating the stove, N/S loading keeps your hands out of the firebox, the wooden handle never gets to hot (it latches on the outside not the inside) I can remove the ashpan with a bare hand when the stove is 700*. This is why there is no need for R- value with these stoves just non combustible ember protection.

In your mega query I know you have alot of factors to consider one of them "painted plate steel" or "shrouded enamel" ...the obvious is the difference in looks. The not so obvious is how they heat. The emanel aside any fully shrouded or "double walled" stove as I like to call it is totally different than straight plate steel or cast in how they deliver heat.

 

[Roospike]

Ye Ole' Gunner has done a he(( of a good job explaining how the double layer of the stove works and how well it heat without getting too hot.

Yes the top of the Pacific Energy stoves are 3/8" thick. The body is 1/4" thick and is fully machine welded.

The Enamel sides , top and front ash lip are screwed on to the stove ( not welded ) and can be taken off if need-be for what ever reason ( as well as the back heat shield ) Being screwed on also lets the panels "move" as to when the hot steel fire box expands and contracts it doesnt break the bond of the panels ( as like being welded on )

I will also post a pic of where i have my stove top thermometer under my trivet to show placement and ease of view when the trivet is on the stove.

 

[Roospike]

Gunners pic photo edited.

*******ouch! dat dare shine is hurting my eyes! turn down the "bling" ************** :lol:

 

[TruePatriot]

Gunner:

Thank you for answering my questions about the P.E.'s construction--and I will definitely visit the site and check out the stove's manual.

I found your brief "day in the life of"-experience with your PE helpful--thank you! It gave me a little feel for life with a P.E., e.g., cool handle, "bare-handed" ashpan handling, etc....

Given that there is so little radiant heat, (evidenced by the close clearances that PE allows) as it is designed as a convective stove, do you find you run the blower 24/7? Or does the heat "thermosyphon" through the convection chambers, like coolant in Henry's Model T engine (i.e., no waterpump)?

Roo:

Great pics! Obviously, you've never had any thermo-shock or other damage to that "whorehouse red" enamel--it's beautiful! Though with that amount of W.H. red, you probably shouldn't be "casting stones" about Gunner's "gold bling"! :lol: LOL

Thanks again, guys.

Peter

 

[Roospike]

I have to give Gunner a hard time on his bling becasue i think it looks awesome on the Summit classic but just didnt work with the look in my home. 8-/ so i have to be “casting stones” to cover up what i would of loved to have but didnt get.

BUT

Here is the thing about options on the PE stoves. If a few years down the road if feel the need to change the look of my stove to look just like gunners and or different then with in less then a week i could change the look to what ever option i wanted and have a completely different looking stove.

 

[Gunner]

I don't have a blower...don't really like them for the noise. My house is wide open and I have a ceiling fan

 

[Gunner]

I have to give Gunner a hard time on his bling

Me likes da bling