PB-105 Second Thoughts and questions...

[Wayne64SS]

Hello everyone! I've done lots of searches on google and here and this seems to be the best forum around for this sort of thing. I put a down payment on a PB-105 more than a few months back and have already paid for my pellets. I am currently awaiting arrival and installation of my boiler which is scheduled for Oct 31. I have an 1100 sq ft house single floor ranch, with crappy attic insulation and leaky windows. I go through about 1000-1200 gallons of oil in a year. My oil furnace is quite old and not very efficient any more either. I just installed a tankless hot water heater (previously i was heating my hot water with a tank off of my oil furnace) and am hoping i have made a well planned and thought out decision. I'm a little iffy on my purchase right now and am hoping you will guide me in the right direction. I am paying $6700 for the pellet boiler itself and another $2200 for installation. The installation seems very basic, he's leaving my current oil unit as a backup and says the flute pipe (going direct vent) is really expensive for the new boiler and that is why it costs so much. I don't really have a good feeling about that installation price. Am I getting bent over for installation? Should I install this hot-rod myself? I did the tankless water heater install by myself... i can post picks if anyone would like to see it. I'm looking to save as much money on heat as i possibly can (aren't we all)! Is the PB-105 a good decision? I see there are some ignitor issues here and there but i also heard they got redesigned? My plan currently is not to idle burn as that would waste fuel. Any recommendations on how many pellets? My dealer said 5 tons so that's what i have purchased. Any information you guys think might be relevant to help me out would be very much appretiated. Untill my hot water heater install I've never touched the heating system except to change a few valves on the radiators last year. I'm completely new to the pellet game. Thanks in advance, I apologize if I have posted something I shouldn't but I don't think I have. Here's to a warm winter for everyone

 

[Delta-T]

Wayne, i think the PB105 is an excellent machine. Your cost for install is about average for the installs I'm aware of. Your installer is correct, PL pipe is not cheap and your vent configuration will be dependant on the placement of the machine. Its also very heavy so expect a few guys and some type of machine to show up. The PB105 is built for a house that is much larger than what you describe so you should have no problems with the capacity of the machine. Heck, get yourself an inground pool and heat it with the surplus BTU's. Ask your installer if they are configuring the install for a parallel operation with dedicated thermostat for the PB105. Do you also plan to use the domestic water coil option or pull DHW out of the 105 as a separate zone? There a lot of variables for installing these types of things. You could always call a different plumber to see if you could get the labor for less and run the venting yourself to save some $$. Harman makes the owners manual available on their website, so you could take a look at the install options in there and see if its something you are up to. If the guy you have installing the PB105 is very familiar with its operation it may be worth it to have him do it just so you can pick his brain about how its "supposed" to operate. There is a learning curve. Harman worked out the ignitor thing so don't worry too much about that. Read the owners manual (everyone says they will, but they never do,at least until something doesnt do what you think it should do, lol). Good Luck my friend

 

[Wayne64SS]

Wayne, i think the PB105 is an excellent machine. Your cost for install is about average for the installs I'm aware of. Your installer is correct, PL pipe is not cheap and your vent configuration will be dependant on the placement of the machine. Its also very heavy so expect a few guys and some type of machine to show up. The PB105 is built for a house that is much larger than what you describe so you should have no problems with the capacity of the machine. Heck, get yourself an inground pool and heat it with the surplus BTU's. Ask your installer if they are configuring the install for a parallel operation with dedicated thermostat for the PB105. Do you also plan to use the domestic water coil option or pull DHW out of the 105 as a separate zone? There a lot of variables for installing these types of things. You could always call a different plumber to see if you could get the labor for less and run the venting yourself to save some $$. Harman makes the owners manual available on their website, so you could take a look at the install options in there and see if its something you are up to. If the guy you have installing the PB105 is very familiar with its operation it may be worth it to have him do it just so you can pick his brain about how its "supposed" to operate. There is a learning curve. Harman worked out the ignitor thing so don't worry too much about that. Read the owners manual (everyone says they will, but they never do,at least until something doesnt do what you think it should do, lol). Good Luck my friend

Great info! Thank you for the insight on the installation price. That was mostly my main concern. I had DHW off my old furnace but as stated i removed it and purchased and installed an electric tankless hot water heater. I did this in preparation as my electric bills are general very low and i wanted to save on whatever fuel i was going to be running for heat this year, be it oil or pellets. Also I really can't stand the idea of operating a unit like this all summer long just to heat hot water.

I realize the unit is monsterous in size and very heavy, not a problem. I am lucky enough to have a drive-in basement which is completely clear so the guys can prolly drive in and unload etc. or at least bring it in with a pallet jack no problem.

I believe my installer stated he would be running it in parallel, in that the temp on my oil burner will be set lower than the one on the 105 so it will only kick on when the 105 runs out of fuel and drops below the threshold. I think that is parallel but am not sure? There was no mention of a dedicated thermostat? Would that be beneficial for me and if so how?

I have a large seperate garage about 200+ feet from the house. It already has a line for water run from the house through pvc below the freeze line and up into the garage... currently the garage is not heated... and it appears i will have extra btu's. Would it be possible / worthwhile to heat the garage with the extra btu's, and if so what kind of increase in fuel expense?

Thanks again for your time and response.

 

[Willman]

It already has a line for water run from the house through pvc below the freeze line and up into the garage…

Is this a dual (supply & return) line? If so is it insulated and out of any ground water ? Also is it sized for the btu transfer that the garage would require ?
Will

 

[ssupercoolss]

boy i hope your boiler comes in october.....i had a harman wood/coal boiler on order for 4 months now.....3 different delivery dates..i finally bagged the harman product after thier last delivery date of dec 30th. its ashame too, cause i kinda liked thier product. maybe since i cancelled mine yours will get produced in time keep our fingers crossed.

 

[Delta-T]

wayne, having a dedicated thermostat would allow you to isolate the PB105 so that your oil system would only come on when you house temp drops below your desired temp. Running the machines in series tells the machines to work based on the water's temp not the house temp. I'm not sure if either system is "better" than the other but if you run out of pellets your oil will kick on either way.With parallel you could tell the oil thermostat to just keep the house at say 55 degrees if you run out of pellets or something, where if you have a series system with just one thermostat, the oil will turn on and keep the house at the same temp as the PB105. Six of one, half dozen of another, but you may like one better than the other.
Heating your garage ....... I have no idea how much that would take. Without any previous fuel usage, size, insulation quality and whatnot information I couln't even guess. But if you've never needed heat in your garage before.. you might be better served by the inground pool.

 

[Wayne64SS]

Yea i hear you there... i guess my goal is to use the wood boiler instead of the oil 100% of the time unless i run out of pellets. would i need dual thermostats to do that or just the one?

 

[wil lanfear]

My dealer said 5 tons so that’s what i have purchased. Any information you guys think might be relevant to help me out would be very much appretiated.

I average around 1000 gal of fuel oil usage for heat and DHW per year for my home. In March I installed a PB 105 with the expectation of using around 10 tons of pellets per year for heat and DHW. IMO, I think you will use more than 5 tons of pellets to heat your home based on your fuel oil usage.

 

[Wayne64SS]

hmmm how many did you actually use so far? If i'm going to go through that many pellets its really not worth it to switch.

 

[wil lanfear]

I first fired it the first week in March, at the present time I've used around 2.5 tons, using it everyday since I fired it for heat and DHW. My dealer told me prior to the purchase, 1 ton of pellets equal around 100 gal. of fuel oil

 

[sinnian]

DO NOT direct vent your boiler, no matter what the manual, etc. says. You need a proper draft.

 

[Wayne64SS]

DO NOT direct vent your boiler, no matter what the manual, etc. says. You need a proper draft.

well what the hell?!?!? Thats the only way it can be installed here?!?!?!

 

[ramthis12]

I installed a PB105 this fall for $2200.00. So I think your install price is good. The materials will run you $1200.00 alone with the rest falling to labor. My set up is similar to your proposed. It takes about a half a bag a day to run my hot water and maintain the two boilers @ temp. I purchased 7 tons to suppliment my 700 to 800 gallons of oil usage in the last 4 years. I still have 3/4 of a tank of oil along with two cords of wood for the wood insert. I'm figuring on 1 bag of pellets for 2.5 gallons of oil. This should get me through the winter providing we don't get a really cold spell to throw off my plan.

 

[Wayne64SS]

I first fired it the first week in March, at the present time I've used around 2.5 tons, using it everyday since I fired it for heat and DHW. My dealer told me prior to the purchase, 1 ton of pellets equal around 100 gal. of fuel oil

you had your heat on all summer??? uuugh i don't really have a place for 10-12 ton of pellets. If it ends up using that much someone on here will get a really nice deal on a used PB-105.


Is there anyone else on here that can provide input as to expected pellet usage?

 

[Wayne64SS]

I installed a PB105 this fall for $2200.00. So I think your install price is good. The materials will run you $1200.00 alone with the rest falling to labor. My set up is similar to your proposed. It takes about a half a bag a day to run my hot water and maintain the two boilers @ temp. I purchased 7 tons to suppliment my 700 to 800 gallons of oil usage in the last 4 years. I still have 3/4 of a tank of oil along with two cords of wood for the wood insert. I'm figuring on 1 bag of pellets for 2.5 gallons of oil. This should get me through the winter providing we don't get a really cold spell to throw off my plan.

lol posted as i was posting! hmmm I'm beginning to wonder if this is the right choice. I would essentially be at least doubling my expected pellet usage, which puts me close to the price of oil anyway. hmmm ideas guys?

 

[sinnian]

By DO NOT direct vent your boiler, I meant make sure you have plenty of vertical pipe to get a great (not good) draft.

 

[AndrewChurchill]

I've been using my PB105 daily since August 1 and on average I've been using 1/4 bag a day to heat my hot water. I do this by putting both the boiler and DHW tank on timers and have them call for heat once a day. Once the tank is fully heated in the morning there is still enough hot water to do dishes and give the baby a bath at night.

I ordered 8 tons to get me through the winter and so far I've used less than 1/2 ton.

 

[Wayne64SS]

lol maybe i'll be buying anything you have left over!

I will be very curious to see how many i actually use. The more I read now the more everything is pointing me to like 8 to 8.5 ton usages for my oil usage. I'm going to try to keep it as low as possible. I have a thermostat that is set to 68 only during the hours i'm home until about 11 or midnight. The rest of the time its at 60. I also bought plastic for the windows this year in the hopes it will keep down the drafts. Next year she gets a roof and new insulation in the attic.... maybe windows.

 

[Brian Redmond]

Great info on this forum.
I just received my PB 105 and thought installation would run about $1000. Still waiting on quotes. $2000 seems really high.
The delivery guy said he also has one (newer home 2000 sqft) and said he burns about 5 tons a season.
I also have a newer home so I hope I burn about the same.
If installation is over $2000 I might look into selling.
Any feedback would be appreciate. Thanks!

 

[AndrewChurchill]

I would say $1000 for installation is low. The PL vent pipe alone is going to cost at least 1/2 the install price, not to mention all the other regular plumbing pieces and parts that need to be installed.

 

[Wayne64SS]

lol Brian how much do you want for yours? Mine's not here yet...

 

[Brian Redmond]

If the installation quotes do come in that high and we decide to sell I would just want what I paid.

 

[Wayne64SS]

what did you get yours for if you don't mind me asking?

 

[AndrewChurchill]

I paid $6300 for mine this past May.

I built a new house and had the PB105 and Buderus oil boiler installed. We did a modular home so the only thing my plumber had to do was install the boilers and hook into the existing plumbing. Including the price of the PB105 and Buderus it cost me $17,000 to install both boilers. My brother is a master plumber and he only charged my $35 per hour for labor and I got all the plumbing supplies except for the PB105 at his cost.

I can only imagine what it would have cost me if I had to have hired someone else.

 

[Brian Redmond]

I paid $6500 + the heating coil $240 + tax.