PE SUMMIT Acting Odd

[Mike.O]

Second year with my Summit. It's a 2009 I believe. This year I've noticed an unusual smoke pattern during my burns. It will take off and burn great on a full load for the first +/- 3 hours, no chimney smoke and a nice hot stove, 600 degrees.. After that the secondaries stay dancing around very nice in the box and it appears to burn normal, 500 -600 degrees.... After the initial 3 hours, the smoke comes back and the chimney starts smoking. Hot fire, secondaries dancing nicely.

Why am I getting smoke this late in the burn? Last year I never got smoke in the middle stages of the burn, especially after burning clean for 3+ hours.

Last year I burned with no baffle gasket. This year i added the gasket, but that shouldn't affect the smoking.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Is wood dry all the way through?

 

[Mike.O]

Is wood dry all the way through?

I just did a full load this morning to test that theory. Tested most of the pieces, sugar maple and red maple, and they were 20% and still the same burn/smoke patterns.

 

[begreen]

Is the "smoke" white and quickly dissipating or grey and lingering?

 

[Mike.O]

Is the "smoke" white and quickly dissipating or grey and lingering?

It is smoke, smells and hangs around. It's not water vapor.

 

[begreen]

It is smoke, smells and hangs around. It's not water vapor.

Good. What is the flue temp at the point when this happens?

 

[Mike.O]

Good. What is the flue temp at the point when this happens?

Stove above 500, closer to 550 and flue is hovering around 350. Sitting on the couch everything burns normal, the logs flame out like they normally would after 3 hours and the secondaries dance around perfectly. The smoke pretty much coincides with the logs flaming out and the burn going to all secondary.

 

[begreen]

The burn sounds pretty normal. I am assuming this is single-wall flue, right?

 

[Mike.O]

The burn sounds pretty normal. I am assuming this is single-wall flue, right?

Insulated flex liner. 1/2" insulation. From Rockford. 2 years old.

Sitting on the couch, everything is 100% normal. Burns good, temps are all good, secondaries active.

Outside, it doesn't add up. I shouldn't be getting smoke starting in the middle 3rd of the load. I didn't at all last year.

More confused/annoyed than anything.

 

[mcdougy]

Does the smoke stick around for the rest of the load? Have you experimented with opening the air a bit to see if it wants a bit more? Is it the same wood as last year?

 

[Sodbuster]

If you have a buddy that burns wood, trade a few firebox loads with him, and see if the problem goes away. That will eliminate the wood as a cause.

 

[Mike.O]

Does the smoke stick around for the rest of the load? Have you experimented with opening the air a bit to see if it wants a bit more? Is it the same wood as last year?

Eventually it will go away after the load is in the latter part of its burn. Yes, it does go away almost immediately after opening up the air. But once we get into 24/7 season, I can't stuff the load in the morning and adjust the air 3 hours later from work.

If you have a buddy that burns wood, trade a few firebox loads with him, and see if the problem goes away. That will eliminate the wood as a cause.

Good thought. I'll steal a few loads worth from my dad this weekend.

 

[begreen]

Good thought. I'll steal a few loads worth from my dad this weekend.

Good plan. I just checked our chimney top at hour 3 of this load. Nothing but heatwaves in sight.

 

[Mike.O]

Good plan. I just checked our chimney top at hour 3 of this load. Nothing but heatwaves in sight.

Thanks begreen. Still got about 2 more weeks until I go 24/7. Hoping to get everything ironed out by then.

I have a thought.... the Summit has that gasket around the baffle inlet only, not the entire back ledge. by adding that gasket, in theory it would then "lift" the baffle maybe 1/8" off the back rail. Is that gap a possible escape for uncombusted gasses? Seems like a gasket the full width of the stove would be a better design??

 

[begreen]

The rear baffle gasket only needs to seal around the baffle's secondary air supply tube. If that gasket was leaking it would mean a little more secondary air entering the rear of the firebox. No smoke will exit via this path due to the draft created vacuum in the firebox. If it did you would smell it right away.

 

[Mike.O]

The rear baffle gasket only needs to seal around the baffle's secondary air supply tube. If that gasket was leaking it would mean a little more secondary air entering the rear of the firebox. No smoke will exit via this path due to the draft created vacuum in the firebox. If it did you would smell it right away.

Thanks begreen. I think I explained my thought poorly. I understand what you said above. What I'm hypothesizing is (I hope I can put my thoughts in writing adequately) without the gasket, the baffle is fully bearing across the back ledge, sitting over the secondary inlet, but the "weight" of the baffle is bearing across the ENTIRE back ledge. Once the baffle gasket is added around the secondary air inlet, it raises the baffle off the rear bearing surface the thickness of the gasket, +/- 1/8", as that is now the bearing surface of the baffle. Could this 1/8" gap between the baffle and the back ledge be an easy escape for unburned combustion gasses?

1/8" x 18" is 2.25 Sq In. of area for gasses to escape. The 6" flue has an area of 28 Sq. In. So it's possible/plausible that 8% of the combustion gas is escaping unburned? Am I completely off base?

 

[Mike.O]

Googling around, there is a gasket to fix the exact problem I'm hypothesizing is happening. It's not for my stove model tho. The first one is what would "fill" the 1/8" void between the baffle and the back ledge I was referring to. The second one is the baffle gasket I have.

Pacific Energy Summit B & C Baffle Gasket: SUMB.BAFFGASK

Replacement Baffle Gasket For Summit B & C

pellet-stove-parts-4less.com

Pacific Energy Summit Series Baffle Gasket (5068.31395): 80000400

Replacement baffle gasket series fits some models: Summit Classic & Insert, Alderlea T6 wood stoves.

pellet-stove-parts-4less.com

 

[begreen]

Thanks begreen. I think I explained my thought poorly. I understand what you said above. What I'm hypothesizing is (I hope I can put my thoughts in writing adequately) without the gasket, the baffle is fully bearing across the back ledge, sitting over the secondary inlet, but the "weight" of the baffle is bearing across the ENTIRE back ledge. Once the baffle gasket is added around the secondary air inlet, it raises the baffle off the rear bearing surface the thickness of the gasket, +/- 1/8", as that is now the bearing surface of the baffle. Could this 1/8" gap between the baffle and the back ledge be an easy escape for unburned combustion gasses?

1/8" x 18" is 2.25 Sq In. of area for gasses to escape. The 6" flue has an area of 28 Sq. In. So it's possible/plausible that 8% of the combustion gas is escaping unburned? Am I completely off base?

Interesting thought, but I don't think so. The baffle will not go over the secondary tube unless it is hard against the back wall. The stock gasket is only about 1/16" thick and that compresses so it doesn't lift the baffle up much. I have the homemade, rope gasket in that place and I am not seeing this issue. Also, any slim gap at the rear of the baffle is not going to change a couple of hours into the burn.

 

[begreen]

Is the baffle warped in the rear? Can you post a picture of it?

The first one is what would "fill" the 1/8" void between the baffle and the back ledge I was referring to. The second one is the baffle gasket I have.

Whoa, $35 for the new baffle gasket. Hope it is made out of a lot stouter stuff than the Summit A gasket.

 

[Hogwildz]

Is the baffle warped in the rear? Can you post a picture of it?

Whoa, $35 for the new baffle gasket. Hope it is made out of a lot stouter stuff than the Summit A gasket.

Nope, same stuff.
Can be had for less...

Pacific Energy Baffle Gasket - Summit Series B - New Style (SUMB.BAFFGASK/80000395)

QUANTITY DISCOUNTS APPLY! This is a replacement baffle gasket for Pacific Energy Summit Series wood stoves - Newer Models. This is a price for a single

friendlyfires.ca

Or just make your own.

 

[Mike.O]

Interesting thought, but I don't think so. The baffle will not go over the secondary tube unless it is hard against the back wall. The stock gasket is only about 1/16" thick and that compresses so it doesn't lift the baffle up much. I have the homemade, rope gasket in that place and I am not seeing this issue. Also, any slim gap at the rear of the baffle is not going to change a couple of hours into the burn.

Awesome, thank you for explaining. I didn't consider the rear of the baffle and the other points you brought up. Thanks!

Is the baffle warped in the rear? Can you post a picture of it?

It's a new baffle last year. Ill try to get a picture after work today. I believe it is straight in the back, no sagging/warping in the front, so id imagine the back is good. I'll check this afternoon.

 

[Mike.O]

Last night sure enough, almost like clock work, it happens again. Get home at 3:00, start a fire with kindling and small splits. get the stove up to 300-400, add 5 -6 average splits (just under half a fire box full) and it takes off wonderfully, just like usual. Gets up to 500-600, secondaries going great, air 80-90% closed where I've always run it. The burn transitions to all secondaries with optimal stove temps. At hour 3, the secondaries flame out and I'm hoping it's in the coaling stage. Go outside and check the chimney and its smoking. Come back in open up the air, secondaries reengage for 5-10 minutes and die out, smoke stops and doesn't return.

It's like the the stove is flaming out just before all the gasses are combusted.

 

[begreen]

Ah, that more detailed explanation explains it. From the sounds of things with a partial load the wood is not burning all the way with 80-90% air. I suspect this will not happen with a fully loaded stove, at least that is the hypothesis.

How are you loading, N/S or E/W? At the end of the burn cycle is the wood burning down completely to ash?

Can you try loading the 5-6 splits, N/S, before lighting? Load it with three, 4-5" splits on the bottom, then 2 more on them. Like a truncated pyramid. Then make some newspaper knots and put them on top of the wood and add kindling on top. This is also known as a top down start. See if that improves the smoke issue.
Top-down lighting -

 

[xman23]

Sounds like it's flaming out and smoldering. Not enough air, hot enough fire box, enough draft. It's early burn season, so draft is down a bit. When I get a fire to die, it's always before a few reloads and a a bed of coals. And wet wood that won't stay burning.

 

[Sodbuster]

Damp or wet wood will suck all the fun out of burning with an EPA Stove.