PE Summit or BK King?

[Rangerbait]

I posted this up in Arboristsite too...

Need advice...getting ready to yank my gas fireplace and build a hearth/have a standalone wood stove installed.

The current fireplace is in a 2' bump out that extends the entire 9' of the main floor of my 2 story + finished basement house.

I am opening bump out to create an 8' alcove, that will be finished with masonry work to establish the required R value. Currently, the bump out has a little roof that's even with the bottom of the second floor; I am going to frame a chase it to and beyond the roof, then have my local hearth shop install the double wall pipe, class A pipe, penetrations, and cap. Once that part of the installation is complete, I am going to finish the shear and siding.

Now for the stove. I think I have narrowed my choice down to the Pacific Energy Summit and the Blaze King King. I have 5,000 total square feet including the basement, a 2 story entryway that draws warm air upstairs pretty well, and the main cold air return of the downstairs heat pump is in the same room that the stove is going.

My goal is to burn wood full time, and to hopefully limit the heat pump use to taking the chill off of the house while the stove gets going, as well as to reach the hinterlands of the house via selective vent opening and closing.

I am also open to other models of high output/long burn time rigs. I have a solid 4 cords of seasoned hardwoods, and am already working to stock up for the next couple of seasons.

Also: I grew up with wood burning stoves as our only source of heat in the High Sierra of eastern California, so I am relatively wood stove qualified.

Thanks in advance for the advice!

 

[Niko]

I love my King ultra, i was a beginner to wood burning when i bought it. 3 1/2 years later i ove every bit of it. Im still learning the stove, wood species, wood moisture as i gain experience. My house is 3,000 sqaure feet, 1,500 on each floor. I heat my house fine but i have to run her a lil hotter then i want got to get heat upstairs, the also depends on hoe good your house is insulated, But i still get 24 hr burn times on it.

I cant speak for the summit but just looking at the specs i would get the King. The one awesome thing about the Blaze King stove is they have the a way to control the air without overfirering the stove itself. With a automatic thermostatic controlled air unit. No electonics or motors. Their are also many on this site that know the company and are far more knowledgable then me that will chime in.

5,000 sqaure feet is alot to ask from any stove. If you have it stategically placed im sure it will do a gret job and save you lots on fuel expenses. But in my opnion you would be better off with 2 stoves or maybe a outdoor boiler. If your really gonna heat with wood 24/7 then the room the stove is in unless it huge and very open, that room is going to very hot. Cause your going to have to run it hot in order to get the heat to so those other parts of your 5,000 sqaure heat. A heat pump will help but when hot air is moved with fans threw out the house it gets cooled down.

Tell us more about your setup and your houses floor plan.

 

[begreen]

Agreed. 5000 sq ft is wood furnace or boiler territory. Cathedral or extra tall ceilings will increase the volume needing heat. Maybe get both stoves? That's two houses worth of space to heat. Distributing heat via the hvac can be a mixed bag. It's possible that the air will cool down too much in long duct runs.

 

[NoobTube]

Sounds like you are definitely in wood furnace territory. The biggest issue you will have with 5K sqft is getting heat distributed with either setup. One wont be enough. According to what you wrote you have a heat pump for the downstairs and one for the upstairs. Using one stove and trying to distribute heat is not going to work. I tried it with mine and it just cooled the air down too much.

I think your best setup is going to be either a dual stove setup (optimally 2 BK's with offset loading schedules) or a Wood furnace in the basement and a stove up top.

I think option number 1 with two BK's would be your best bet if you wanted total reliance on just wood. Of course, if you wanted to just do suplemental or offset the heat pump in the second floor, I'd opt for a wood furnace in the basement which heats that space and the ground floor, and just turn on the heat pump for upstairs as its needed.

 

[jetsam]

No reason he can't use a wood stove for supplemental heat, especially if he just plain likes wood stoves.

The wood stove could be the only heat for much of the year in WV if there was fantastic air circulation, but I have to agree that no stove is likely to do 5000sf solo in the middle of winter.

As far as stove choice, unless the Summit is vastly cheaper, there's not much of a contest there. 3 vs 4.3 cf firebox, 10 vs 40 hour burn times, and of course the king does BK low burns, making it a practical shoulder season heater. The King is a lot more efficient, too.

If you're looking at the advertised low burn times on the King and wondering how much the marketing guys exaggerated them, the answer is that they may actually have understated them a bit.

SO if you want a stove for short burns to blast out max heat in winter to help with heating, they're both fine. If you want a more versatile heater, get the King.

 

[begreen]

Note that the King takes an 8" flue system of at least 15ft. The Summit takes a 6" flue and will work with shorter venting.

 

[mstoelton]

If you review the specs for both of the wood stoves you are considering, you will see that the BK king has possible 40 hour burn times @ 15,475 btu on low. On high it has a potential for 51,582 on high, but that is for only a 12 hour burn.

The summit can put out as much as 99,000 btu for as much as 12 hours. While I don't necessarily believe that the summit will actually put that much heat out for 12 hours I believe that if you base your decision solely on size, you will mislead yourself.

I don't think either stove by itself will make your 5000 sq ft home warm without help.

 

[begreen]

If the Summit is being pushed for peak btus the burn time will be halved. More like 6-8hrs..

 

[showrguy]

I'm heating 5600 with my BK King, no problem, just sayin..
But, I do have the stove on the 1sr floor of 2 story house with a pretty wide open floor plan...
I never have to run the stove wide open either..
1st floor 40x60, 2nd floor 40x80..

 

[begreen]

Impressive. Sounds like the place is pretty tight and well insulated with good convective airflow. Are you heating all season long with wood and no supplemental heat?

 

[showrguy]

Impressive. Sounds like the place is pretty tight and well insulated with good convective airflow. Are you heating all season long with wood and no supplemental heat?

Yessir, I built the house in 2001/02, put in over 2 miles of tubing for radiant floor heat, ran an OWB since then..
Well, until last year, I installed this King to see how much I could offset the wood being consumed by the OWB..
After last winters experience with this stove, I drained the OWB going into this winter.....no regrets...
House is well insulated, but not near as "tight", as one would expect..
I think I may actually have a slight overdraft situation, due to 8" straight chimney pipe, 35' high..
Need to do a proper Manometer test, to confirm..
Stove is awesome, but could possibly awesome-er with a key damper if needed..

 

[begreen]

Very cool, well done.

 

[jetsam]

If you review the specs for both of the wood stoves you are considering, you will see that the BK king has possible 40 hour burn times @ 15,475 btu on low. On high it has a potential for 51,582 on high, but that is for only a 12 hour burn.

The summit can put out as much as 99,000 btu for as much as 12 hours. While I don't necessarily believe that the summit will actually put that much heat out for 12 hours I believe that if you base your decision solely on size, you will mislead yourself.

I don't think either stove by itself will make your 5000 sq ft home warm without help.

Both stoves will be lucky to go 10 hours on the highest setting.

Going by the pamphlet, 3 cubic feet of wood in the 80% efficient Summit puts out 990,000 BTUs over 10 hours, and 4.3 cubic feet of wood in the 88% efficient King puts out 515,820 BTUs in 10 hours.

Those numbers do not begin to make sense. The spec sheets are not a good way to figure stove performance. One reason for that (how do I say this politely) is that the two manufacturers may take different routes to arrive at their numbers.

This is a common enough point of confusion that BK put it on their website.

(broken link removed to http://www.blazeking.com/EN/BTU.html)

(This page also mentions the King's peak BTU output with fir, and it's not 50k. . )

 

[Rangerbait]

Wow, thanks for all of the great replies all!

Couple of things:

1. I am under no illusion that I will be able to stop using my electric heat pumps altogether, I just hope to be able to use them a heckuva lot less. The upstairs has a dedicated unit, and I expect that it will kick in quite a bit while we're sleeping even with the stove burning. 4/5 bedrooms are up there, and are seldom occupied during the day.

2. My wife is a stay-at-home mom, and our house is seldom without occupants for more than 4-5 hours, so I don't really need the ability to go 40 hours without restocking the firebox.

3. I just really do like wood stoves, and am looking forward to the ritual of woodcutting/hoarding.

I am really leaning toward the BK King in either the Classic or Ultra model.

 

[jetsam]

Wow, thanks for all of the great replies all!

Couple of things:

1. I am under no illusion that I will be able to stop using my electric heat pumps altogether, I just hope to be able to use them a heckuva lot less. The upstairs has a dedicated unit, and I expect that it will kick in quite a bit while we're sleeping even with the stove burning. 4/5 bedrooms are up there, and are seldom occupied during the day.

2. My wife is a stay-at-home mom, and our house is seldom without occupants for more than 4-5 hours, so I don't really need the ability to go 40 hours without restocking the firebox.

3. I just really do like wood stoves, and am looking forward to the ritual of woodcutting/hoarding.

I am really leaning toward the BK King in either the Classic or Ultra model.

If your wife doesn't know wood stoves, the King may be a safer choice, too. The thermostat prevents some common overfire scenarios. (You can still overfire it if you leave the door open or something, but I'd consider it safer than a tube stove for a new operator.

A new operator who's interested in learning about their stove can quickly learn to use either one safely, obviously. (My wife is Not Interested, so I appreciate my BK for that too. . )

 

[Niko]

Be very strategic where you put the stove especially if your wife is going to load it or even bring wood in. Remember your gonna be bringing wood into the house so plan out your route per say. I can tell you everytime i load my stove i sweep the floor and any mess the logs bring in. So im very happy that my load doesnt have a long distance to travel before it hits the stove. Also get yourself a nice log cart that can hold the size logs your gonna fill the stove with. If you can forsee your setup thats good lol!

Youll def save money Heating one part of your house from using the King. One thing that is overlooked all the time is the wood moisture and chimney length, watch your bends.

 

[jetsam]

Be very strategic where you put the stove especially if your wife is going to load it or even bring wood in. Remember your gonna be bringing wood into the house so plan out your route per say. I can tell you everytime i load my stove i sweep the floor and any mess the logs bring in. So im very happy that my load doesnt have a long distance to travel before it hits the stove. Also get yourself a nice log cart that can hold the size logs your gonna fill the stove with. If you can forsee your setup thats good lol!

Youll def save money Heating one part of your house from using the King. One thing that is overlooked all the time is the wood moisture and chimney length, watch your bends.

If I'm reloading more than once a day, (most of the winter), I fill up either a wheelbarrow or the lawn tractor's dump trailer, and leave it in the attached garage. Saves a lot of trips to the stacks.

I also try to keep the next reload or two near the stove, which helps dry surface moisture on the wood and is handy.

 

[NoobTube]

If I'm reloading more than once a day, (most of the winter), I fill up either a wheelbarrow or the lawn tractor's dump trailer, and leave it in the attached garage. Saves a lot of trips to the stacks.

I also try to keep the next reload or two near the stove, which helps dry surface moisture on the wood and is handy.

Basically what I do minus the storage in the garage.

 

[Hogwildz]

I can't speak for the BK. But I can for the Summit. You can very easily get 12+ hrs good burn time out of a Summit, with good dry hardwood. In my case Oak. If your putting high heat out of both stoves, the burn the burn times will narrower between the two, but the BK may still get longer times. I think the Princess is closer to same burn times when run hard in colder part of winter. In the shoulder season, you will get better burn times out of the BK, although the Summit will also longer burn times in shoulder weather, 16+ hrs depending on outside temps & indoor heat demand. As far as overfiring, any stove can overfire. I may be wrong, but it seems to me, if you have the dial cranked all the way up on a BK, and let it fly, I would guess it might also be possible to overfire it or beat the crap out of the cat. Seasoned BKers can enlighten me if I am wrong.
Both stoves should be fairly easy to operate, and quite frankly, to suggest one is easier or harder than the other is BS. Summit has one air lever, get it to temp and lower the air intake as much as you want to get what you need. BK has one more step with engaging Cat, no big deal. Both are good stoves, and regardless of claims you will find on here, I highly doubt you will heat the entire 5000sf on one stove, regardless of the stove. Not unless that house is tight as a frogs arsehole. at 3000+sf you're reaching the stoves upper limits without having to push it hard constantly. The only saving grace is that you're in a slightly warmer climate, but I'm sure you get your share of cold nights. Maybe you can close off as much sf as you can. 5000sf is kind of ridiculous, but to each their own.

 

[Ashful]

I am really leaning toward the BK King in either the Classic or Ultra model.

Yes. For me, the only way a wood stove works in a very large space, is to have one that can run predictable 12 or 24-hour batch burns. Load it once or twice per day, and just keep pumping BTU's into that envelope, while the boiler and heat pumps pick up the difference.

So, folks will tell you the BK's real strength is its super-long burn capability, but they've only got that half right. BKs other main strength, for folks like us, is that you can very predictably and repeatably nail just about any burn time you want. The thermostat automatically compensates for variation in draft due to outdoor temperature, and other factors.

I run two BK's, and have one set to run repeatable 12-hour reloads, while the other is running 24-hour cycles, all winter long. In temperatures above freezing, this actually makes up my entire first floor heating requirements, and much of my second floor. In colder weather the boiler runs more, to pick up the balance, no issue. When we get into warmer weather, as we've been on and off the last few weeks, I can dial them down for 36 hour burns.

I have time to load a stove only a few times per day, as I'm out of the house a lot. These stoves allow me to fit burning into my schedule, rather than shaping my schedule around the feeding needs of a stove.

 

[lsucet]

As far as overfiring, any stove can overfire. I may be wrong, but it seems to me, if you have the dial cranked all the way up on a BK, and let it fly, I would guess it might also be possible to overfire it or beat the crap out of the cat. Seasoned BKers can enlighten me if I am wrong.

The stat prevent the overfiring including if it is wide open, allowing a burn rate without get to that point when still plenty of heat out of the unit.

 

[jetsam]

I may be wrong, but it seems to me, if you have the dial cranked all the way up on a BK, and let it fly, I would guess it might also be possible to overfire it or beat the crap out of the cat. Seasoned BKers can enlighten me if I am wrong.

At last, a Summit owner to the thread

You are wrong about that, unless the door or bypass are open (or the gaskets are leaky). Under normal conditions, full throttle is fine, even if you are doing hot partial reloads.

Both stoves should be fairly easy to operate, and quite frankly, to suggest one is easier or harder than the other is BS.

.

I said safer for a new operator, not easier. Why safer? See above, really tough to overfire. I don't think the summit is dangerous, it just doesn't have the thermostat.

 

[Squisher]

That's kind of picking your mistakes so to speak. A summit is not easy to dangerously overfire in my personal setup. It'll get super hot but not actually damage anything or light my home on fire if left wide open. Whereas what happens with a king if you forget to close the damper say?

The summit is a much simpler stove, less moving parts, less gaskets, no combustor. If you were to ever damage the baffle plate(no tubes on a PE a much more robust plate instead) or the baffle supports by overfiring they are easily replaceable if need be without even using any tools. I believe a baffle(which on my super insert is seventeen years old and going strong) is about the same price as a combustor which it would seem is a 3-5 year replacement item on a BK depending how much you burn and possibly even less time reported by some users here. Espescially if you foul it some way. Seems to be a near constant discussion here lately of people having issues with figuring out if their combustors are still working well or not. And from the outside looking in the stove cats seem to me to work similarily to a vehicle cat. They will over time start to work less and less efficiently until eventual replacement. Reading through the BK threads it seems having a spare combustor and gasket on hand is highly recommended.

Comparing the summit to the king king isn't even really a fair comparison the king is a much larger stove and requires a larger chimney even.

Also no one has mentioned the viewing but if the ambiance of a nice flame show is what you're looking for the summit has the edge there IMO. Yes I know you can have active flames with a BK but it's my understanding that that comes at the expense of the burn times.

And for maintenance. The summit is simpler and easier to maintain. Less gaskets, less replaceable parts, and a design that makes cleaning of the chimney and the stove simple and easy.

Are both good stoves? I think so.
Is a summit and a king comparable stoves? They get compared a lot but really the king is a way bigger stove.
Which burns longer? Hands down the BK lineup appears to be the literal king of burn times, but I agree with Hogwildz on his assessment of the summits burn times.

Two totally different technologies. One being older and simpler with less part and less replacement parts. The other being more efficient, more versatile in btu delivery(the ability to burn low and slow), and more complex with more replacement parts. Both have their place, with many happy owners in both camps.

 

[Ashful]

Well, let me preface what I'm about to say by noting that the OP can take one thing away from this thread. They're both great stoves, with happy owners on both sides. That said, a few issues with your comments, Squisher:

That's kind of picking your mistakes so to speak. A summit is not easy to dangerously overfire in my personal setup. It'll get super hot but not actually damage anything or light my home on fire if left wide open. Whereas what happens with a king if you forget to close the damper say?

This is an excellent observation. Once the fire is established, and the bypass is closed, there is literally no way you can overfire or damage a properly maintained BK. It's an excellent system. But, forget to close the bypass damper, and you end up with flames up the chimney. Being a simple welded steel box, it's unlikely you'd destroy the stove, but you could cause damage to the damper door or frame in extreme situations. I once left one of mine open over a half hour into a raging fire, and while I seriously cooked everything out of my chimney, the stove came through it fine.

The summit is a much simpler stove, less moving parts, less gaskets, no combustor.

I do not believe this to be true. Really, the BK is a dead-simple steel box with a door gasket, glass gasket (like any stove), and a small damper door with a gasket. No baffles, no tubes, it simply has a metal frame that holds a combustor. Yes, there is an expanding gasket wrapped around the combustor, if you want to count that... but combustor gaskets do not fail. The thermostat assembly is completely outside the stove (bolted to the back of the stove), and I don't think I've seen but one fail in five years on this forum.

... combustor which it would seem is a 3-5 year replacement item on a BK depending how much you burn and possibly even less time reported by some users here. Espescially if you foul it some way. Seems to be a near constant discussion here lately of people having issues with figuring out if their combustors are still working well or not. And from the outside looking in the stove cats seem to me to work similarily to a vehicle cat. They will over time start to work less and less efficiently until eventual replacement. Reading through the BK threads it seems having a spare combustor and gasket on hand is highly recommended.

Combustors are replacement items. $186 each, and BK warrants the initial one for 10 YEARS. So, after the first ten years, expect an operating cost not too far from $18.60 per year.

Some have killed combustors much more quickly than this, a few as early as year 2 or 3, but BK has replaced all without question. The most common cause is an improperly-maintained leaky door gasket.

Comparing the summit to the king king isn't even really a fair comparison the king is a much larger stove and requires a larger chimney even.

True. The Princess or one of the 30's (Ashford, Chinook, etc.) would be a better comparison. The King is a monster.

Also no one has mentioned the viewing but if the ambiance of a nice flame show is what you're looking for the summit has the edge there IMO. Yes I know you can have active flames with a BK but it's my understanding that that comes at the expense of the burn times.

You cannot have a 40 hour burn times with flame show. But you can match the burn times of the Summit with flame show. I run two Ashfords, one on 24-hour cycles, and the other on 12-hour burns. The one running 24 hour burns is just a glowing box of coals. The one burning 12 hours has flame show through most of the burn. The beauty is that I can select either mode with the turn of a knob, or even go down to "black box radiator" mode with 36 hour burns. Other stoves don't have this option.

And for maintenance. The summit is simpler and easier to maintain. Less gaskets, less replaceable parts, and a design that makes cleaning of the chimney and the stove simple and easy.

I don't know where you get the impression that the BK is complicated. Steel box, door and glass gasket, damper gasket. To clean you just open the damper and send a sooteater up thru the bypass. No need to even disconnect the chimney. There are bad things you can say about BK, no stove or manufacturer is perfect, but this complexity argument is misinformed.

Also, let's not forget your comment about BK on another thread today:

Wow. That's top customer service IMO.

This was in reference to a BK owner who was experiencing a smoke smell from their Ashford 30, which has now happened in 3 or 4 cases (out of thousands sold). Trying to get to the bottom of this issue, BK has sent them a new stove, and is retrieving theirs for evaluation in their factory. It's disappointing that a few customers have had this issue with that particular model (only on Ashford 30's), but BK is going above and beyond to support their product.

 

[Hogwildz]

Nice to have conversations without things "flaming" up. Pun most definitely intended. There are many out in the US that could take example of how a constructive talk or even debate goes. Well done gents.
Both stove choices would be a winner. How often in life do those choices come to play?