PE Summit or BK King?
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I may add a smaller stove on the other side of the house in the future...but really looking forward to the fall when I can fire up the King for the first time. I will be pulling the trigger in a couple of weeks when my local hearth shop is having their spring blowout.
jetsam
Minister of Fire
Squisher
Minister of Fire
Ashful. Many good points that I agree with.
My thoughts behind the BK being a more complicated stove are based on having worked on both of them many times now. IMO as a professional sweep a summit is a simpler and more easily serviceable stove. I see both of them quite often now, the PE's being more common in my area but still I've serviced a dozen or so BK's this winter. So that opinion is based on lots of hands on with both manufacturers. I don't think th BK is overly complex, or a bad design at all. The opposite in fact, they are great stoves. But I do feel it is a more complex stove than a PE.
My impressions on the cat life have been derived from the discussions here in your guys very own 'all things BK' thread. Are there any members here using a decade old cat? It seemed in that thread a 3-5 year life was more common espescially if a 24/7 burner. What's everyone been saying in that thread? 12,000hrs or something?
I believe from reading on here that BK is the most responsive and approachable of all stove manufacturers and really step up to help their customers. PE I wonder how much support I'd get if I had an issue. But I'm two years in with my new stove, and I purchased it defect free and doubt I'll ever talk to PE.
My thoughts behind the BK being a more complicated stove are based on having worked on both of them many times now. IMO as a professional sweep a summit is a simpler and more easily serviceable stove. I see both of them quite often now, the PE's being more common in my area but still I've serviced a dozen or so BK's this winter. So that opinion is based on lots of hands on with both manufacturers. I don't think th BK is overly complex, or a bad design at all. The opposite in fact, they are great stoves. But I do feel it is a more complex stove than a PE.
My impressions on the cat life have been derived from the discussions here in your guys very own 'all things BK' thread. Are there any members here using a decade old cat? It seemed in that thread a 3-5 year life was more common espescially if a 24/7 burner. What's everyone been saying in that thread? 12,000hrs or something?
I believe from reading on here that BK is the most responsive and approachable of all stove manufacturers and really step up to help their customers. PE I wonder how much support I'd get if I had an issue. But I'm two years in with my new stove, and I purchased it defect free and doubt I'll ever talk to PE.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Hi Squisher,
Yes, I forgot you were a sweep, so you do have a lot of experience with many stoves. More than I will ever see, for sure.
On the cat life, I believe most BK owners do make it past the 10 year mark. Really, would BK offer a 10 year warranty, if they had such a high incidence of failure inside that window? However, you are correct that several members here have had them fail sooner. For that, I can hypothesize many reasons:
1. The regulars here are NOT normal wood burners. Most who have had cat's fail after a few years are burning 5000+ hours per year! That's a lot of hours on a stove, perhaps 20x the "average" stove owner.
2. Many seem to be recovered with a vinegar bath. We've always known that combustors typically get polluted long before they're depleted. Simply boiling them in vinegar removes this over-plating, and returns them to full operation. This is nothing new to catalytic stoves, nor unique to BK.
3. Several have been wiped out by a leaking door gasket. In fact, BKVP cites this as the cause of failure in the overwhelming majority of combustors returned to BK for replacement.
Personally, combustor cost and lifetime was not a factor in my decision. I wanted all of the performance advantages that come with a catalytic stove, particularly the BK's. BK will replace any failed combustors in the first 10 years. After that, they cost under $200 to replace. So even if I end up replacing a combustor every fourth year, on the scale of many thousands of dollars I spend to heat my house each year, it's nothing. Others may have different expectations and thresholds, but that's where I'm at!
Yes, I forgot you were a sweep, so you do have a lot of experience with many stoves. More than I will ever see, for sure.
On the cat life, I believe most BK owners do make it past the 10 year mark. Really, would BK offer a 10 year warranty, if they had such a high incidence of failure inside that window? However, you are correct that several members here have had them fail sooner. For that, I can hypothesize many reasons:
1. The regulars here are NOT normal wood burners. Most who have had cat's fail after a few years are burning 5000+ hours per year! That's a lot of hours on a stove, perhaps 20x the "average" stove owner.
2. Many seem to be recovered with a vinegar bath. We've always known that combustors typically get polluted long before they're depleted. Simply boiling them in vinegar removes this over-plating, and returns them to full operation. This is nothing new to catalytic stoves, nor unique to BK.
3. Several have been wiped out by a leaking door gasket. In fact, BKVP cites this as the cause of failure in the overwhelming majority of combustors returned to BK for replacement.
Personally, combustor cost and lifetime was not a factor in my decision. I wanted all of the performance advantages that come with a catalytic stove, particularly the BK's. BK will replace any failed combustors in the first 10 years. After that, they cost under $200 to replace. So even if I end up replacing a combustor every fourth year, on the scale of many thousands of dollars I spend to heat my house each year, it's nothing. Others may have different expectations and thresholds, but that's where I'm at!
Squisher
Minister of Fire
I can see that. And some of those points of how to maintain a cat, vinegar bath and what not are what would lead me to say there is more maintenance with a cat stove. But really I see the point that overall it's minor and if you don't mind doing it and the bit of expense and that long burn performance is what works for you than obviously the BK is the winner.
Everyone's scenario is different. I heat almost exclusively with wood. For my home size two stoves is overkill, but nice when temps really dip down. In the shoulder season I'm happy enough to let my fire go out and restart it every aft/evening so as to not overheat. I do have a fancy high efficiency FAF on natural gas as well to supplement. So for me my summit works well. I've mentioned it before the BK king is the other stove I had been considering. But my existing masonry chimney negated it as an option.
I think both are fine stoves.
Everyone's scenario is different. I heat almost exclusively with wood. For my home size two stoves is overkill, but nice when temps really dip down. In the shoulder season I'm happy enough to let my fire go out and restart it every aft/evening so as to not overheat. I do have a fancy high efficiency FAF on natural gas as well to supplement. So for me my summit works well. I've mentioned it before the BK king is the other stove I had been considering. But my existing masonry chimney negated it as an option.
I think both are fine stoves.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
The king cat is more expensive. It's bigger. My princess cat is only 186$ to replace when it's used up. You can just replace it every 12000 hours (or whatever you get) if it stops working or you can revive it with the acid wash. I don't know guys, 186$ is cheap and it's very easy to pop in a new cat. Is it worth cleaning? It's an option for you to weigh.
Having a cat and thermostat gets you a huge jump in efficiency, something like 10%. Since PE does not know their actual efficiency it might actually be a much bigger jump for the cat. The point is that the cat easily saves you enough wood to pay for the cat replacement.
There is no baffle plate in the BK which must be removed for cleaning, just a cat bypass gasket (like the summit has for the baffle). The internal complications are a wash as the summit has just as many gaskets. The BK guys don't know about that secondary baffle gasket!
The only reason that we're even comparing these two stoves is that you can't hardly find a non-cat any bigger than the summit. "They" think that if a non-cat at 3-3.5 CF can't do the job then you should be using a furnace which is available up to 5 cf in relatively low cost.
I have a big non-cat and a princess ultra. For heating a home, the BK has far superior performance.
As far as burn times not mattering since the wife is home all day, well, does the wife want to spend her time loading a woodstove? My wife loves the 24 hour burn cycle since that means she can do something else all day.
Having a cat and thermostat gets you a huge jump in efficiency, something like 10%. Since PE does not know their actual efficiency it might actually be a much bigger jump for the cat. The point is that the cat easily saves you enough wood to pay for the cat replacement.
There is no baffle plate in the BK which must be removed for cleaning, just a cat bypass gasket (like the summit has for the baffle). The internal complications are a wash as the summit has just as many gaskets. The BK guys don't know about that secondary baffle gasket!
The only reason that we're even comparing these two stoves is that you can't hardly find a non-cat any bigger than the summit. "They" think that if a non-cat at 3-3.5 CF can't do the job then you should be using a furnace which is available up to 5 cf in relatively low cost.
I have a big non-cat and a princess ultra. For heating a home, the BK has far superior performance.
As far as burn times not mattering since the wife is home all day, well, does the wife want to spend her time loading a woodstove? My wife loves the 24 hour burn cycle since that means she can do something else all day.
It would seem that most 24/7 wood burners in the northern parts of the country and most of Canada are going to exceed 10,000hrs burn time in less than 3 yrs.. We frequently hear from folks here complaining about the cost of a $25 gasket or $100 baffle. $2-300 dollars for a cat every 2-3 yrs is not cheap for many wood burners on fixed or lower incomes, especially when the reason they are burning wood is to save money on heating costs. I understand that for some this cost may be less than their monthly beer budget, but for others that is not true.
Squisher
Minister of Fire
No one here will convince me it's as easy and simple to service a bk cat as it is to service a PE stove.
So y'all just flip open that bypass damper and let your soot eaters fly? I don't clean them like that for fear of contaminating the cat with soot. But maybe I should?
You claim the same number of gaskets but there isn't. PE's got the door, window, and baffle gasket(which can easily be replaced with no tools, must be about $3US). And the BK has got the door, glass, damper, and cat.
Number of gaskets is inconsequential really. Reality is a PE is much easier and simpler to work on.
Yah it doesn't burn as long and it's not as efficient. But to try to say that the PE is not a simpler or more easily serviceable stove? Cmon now.
So y'all just flip open that bypass damper and let your soot eaters fly? I don't clean them like that for fear of contaminating the cat with soot. But maybe I should?
You claim the same number of gaskets but there isn't. PE's got the door, window, and baffle gasket(which can easily be replaced with no tools, must be about $3US). And the BK has got the door, glass, damper, and cat.
Number of gaskets is inconsequential really. Reality is a PE is much easier and simpler to work on.
Yah it doesn't burn as long and it's not as efficient. But to try to say that the PE is not a simpler or more easily serviceable stove? Cmon now.
I didn't mean that burn times don't matter, I just meant that as long as it can last 8-9 hours without requiring a reload, I'd be happy. I work 5 min from home, and very rarely do I work more than 8 hours...in fact, I work from home fairly regularly.
jetsam
Minister of Fire
Yes. I sweep top down with a brush, but I just pop open the bypass and go. Then I vaccum out the ledge behind the cat, then the cat from the front, then (if the stove's cold enough) I throw a worklight in the stove and go up top and admire my handiwork.
I don't think that any crud gets in the cat (you can look through it with a flashlight, or stick the worklight up behind it). I also don't think that it would be harmful if it did get in there- either my shop vac would get it, or it would burn off. Unless it was ash; then it would either blow out or wait for me to do a better job on the next shopvac pass.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Nobody is trying to convince you of anything Squish!
Maybe if you serviced the BK the way we hearth members do, you would find it is easier and simpler than whatever it is you do now on the BKs. There's no baffle to remove from the BK before sweeping for example. Both stoves are very easy to maintain. Sweep the stack, and remove the junk.
The cat gasket is not a serviceable part, a wear part, or required to be changed for any maintenance short of cat removal. A new cat comes with a new cat gasket. Replacing the cat is extremely easy.
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