PE Super Insert Baffle

[kslanicky]

I've been heavily using my PE Super Insert since it was installed 6 years ago... I burn pretty much constantly from October-March

When I had my chimney swept this year, the sweep was concerned about my baffle

Does this look like it needs replacing?
Is this common after 5 years of use?

Thanks for the input

 

[KpR]

I'd say yes, a replacement is in order. But I can't back it up with much experience.
How much of a warp do you think it has now? I think PE states up to 1/4" is ok--more than that and it will impede performance.
Can't say if it's normal for 5 years of heavy use, but it sure is rugged.
Also, I don't know the details, but often hear talk of PE offering baffle replacements one time over the life of a stove. A call to your dealer could verify that.
Were you still getting good secondaries out of there?

 

[Dix]

My insert was installed in 2008 (the PE), and my baffle is in way better shape than that (looking for pics).

What set off the secondaries to burn that hot?

PE's warranty link. You'll need your bill of sale, model, and serial number

http://www.pacificenergy.net/support/warranty-terms/wood/

Or call Tom Oyen

(broken link removed)

He'll tell you the truth. I dealt with him when the fan went on out the PE when it was under warranty, and I'm in New York

Tell him Dixie sent ya

 

[begreen]

What temps are you running on this stove?

 

[kslanicky]

Thanks for all the info so far...

Yes, I've continued to get good secondaries even with the shape it's in
I've tried contacting my dealer, and they have been less than helpful - - can/should I try another dealer and/or ChimneySweepOnline for warranty coverage?
I have no idea what I could've burned that got the temps so hot... but I'm not going to lie, I do not test my burn temps at all. Yesterday, while reading this forum, is the first time I've even heard about doing so. What do you all recommend for temp testing? Infrared temp tester on the window, or something else?

I thought I knew a lot about this stove.... apparently not!

 

[begreen]

It's hard to get good temps on an insert, but you can get at least a relative temp by putting a 2" magnetic thermometer or taking an IR reading on the top metal face. There should be room above the corners of the door. The baffle is not shot, but it's on its way to eventual leakage and failure.

 

[Dix]

Couldn't find old pics, and saw this thread AFTER I had fired off the PE tonight, so I braved the elements, and got a pic of my baffle, as I said, installed September of 2008.



Also snapped a pic of front with thermometer (the things I do for my fellow burners )


Thermometer is a guide, it's usually 200 or so degrees hotter in the box than the t stat reads.

What are you burning, might I ask?

 

[kslanicky]

Thanks for the additional information and pictures

Yours clearly looks way better than mine - WOW

Few follow-ups...
1. How do you know that it's about 200 degrees hotter than the temp gauge shows? How would I come up with that same baseline comparison?
2. I burn mostly mixed hardwood... but I won't lie, I know I have put a few questionable pieces (perhaps rail road ties) and also burned some old decking that I had. I'm sure that's probably what did it in for the most part. I won't do that anymore (although the damage has been done) as that was probably not too smart.
3. I spoke to Tom from chimneysweeponline, (thanks for the lead on him)... and he had some great info. First, he said no way PE would replace the baffle... he said the only way those really go bad, especially the way mine is, is with mis-use. And they won't pay for me doing stupid things. And he also said that as long as there's not a whole all the way through it, that it is fine the way it is. I also got a new gasket and installed that over the weekend... and my burns are way more controlled now. The old gasket was definitely letting air in.

One side question... the lever that control air flow... is there a way to A) see how it's controlling the airflow anywhere? Or B) change it up to make it limit air flow even more?

It seems on mine like when I just barely move it to the left, it really opens up a lot. And frankly, i'd almost like to make it shut even more air off sometimes... or am I probably best not to touch it even if I could?

 

[Squisher]

I too find my summit stove very touchy on the lower end of the air control. Mostly once the load of wood is charred and the stove is up to temp I'm running with the air closed or nearly closed and as little as 1/4 to 1/2 inch open can cause it to run really hot. For me it works fine like this and I'd have no desire to try and mess with it myself to see if I could limit more air. Last night I left it with the air turned right down and secondary's were burning nicely, 10hrs later I had plenty of hit coals to re-ignite my morning load. I would say this corresponds quite accurately with what they state for burn times and is in-line with what I was expecting from the stove. To be able to burn overnight with a non-cat stove.

 

[begreen]

The fire temp is less important than the actual stove temp. You can read this on the stove top.
Old railroad ties are typically soaked with creosote. Not only are they more flammable, burning treated wood emits a lot of toxins into the air. Don't do this!!
Once the fire is going strongly most of the air control is in the last 25% of the control. This is typical. To see how the air control works remove the ashpan and use a mirror + flashlight. It is right up front and easy to see.

 

[kslanicky]

"The fire temp is less important than the actual stove temp. You can read this on the stove top. "
What do you mean I can read this on the stove top? How? You mean with the set up as you had shown it?
And THAT is the temp that I want to regulate? What's the hottest it should ever get?

Honestly, 95% of the time, I start the fire, get the secondary burn going, and I completely shut off the air (all the way to the right). I'll do my best to keep the secondary going either by adding wood or by opening the oxygen up a little bit... but for the most part, that value is to the right 95% of the time.

I too will have enough hot embers after 8-10 hours to start the next mornings fire... so that's pretty good. But frankly, I'd slow it down even more if I could (although perhaps I would be limiting the efficiency at that point, and limiting/preventing secondary burn?)

 

[begreen]

Whoops, forgot you have the insert. Temp will need to be read on the insert face with a thermometer placed above the corners of the stove or an IR reading taken on the face above the door. IR reading through the glass is likely to be inaccurate.

 

[Squisher]

If you're adding wood with your air closed right down does it maintain secondaries while you're doing that? My stove seems like it wouldn't. I generally load the stove right up and run my air open and let it heat right up and off gas cutting the air back in increments until I can maintain temp and secondary's with little to know air. I then don't open the door or add individual pieces of wood until that load burns right down to coals and the coals even burn down enough so there's room to add another full load of wood at one time, then repeating the whole process. Might load three times a day? Depending on the size of the load and how hot I'm running it. I never myself add just a individual piece of wood here or there as normal operation. I espescially don't add fresh wood with the air turned right down as it seems in my stove it would be off gassing at to low of a temp and I believe I'd be risking creosote in the chimney.

Also upon reload if I cut my air back to fast or fully right away the temp will drop and I lose secondary's and will have to crank it up again to get the wood off gassed or charred enough before I can maintain secondary's with the air turned right down.

Pretty much unless you have a lot of experience with burning non-cat epa stoves a thermometer or temp reading of some sort is pretty critical to ensure you're burning safely and effectively. Imo anyways.

 

[kslanicky]

You may be right... I'm probably far more of a novice at this than you are.
I need to pay more attention to my secondaries... and start using temperature to help guide me

Heck, maybe I'm not even getting/keeping secondaries very long at all!!

With your method (load and leave alone), how long do your secondaries last once you fill it up and cut down the oxygen?

 

[Squisher]

They last until the entire load is burned down to glowing coals. If I loose them early my temps will drop and then you risk pushing creosote up the chimney with the unburnt exhaust gases. I find this can happen if you cut the air back to soon and never allow the temps to get up high enough in the first place. Typically if I've cut the air back to soon, I'll have secondary's for a bit but then I'll loose them. If I've gotten everything up to a nice hot temp and let the wood offgas and char and cut my air back incrementally than the secondary's will last for the entire load, or if I do loose them the tiniest adjustment of increased air will bring them back.

Imo you really need a thermometer in order to guide you in this, espescially when starting out.

I've burned all my life with non epa wood stoves and you could petty much throw a piece or two on now and then and never need to adjust the air much. With this new stove that I just installed this fall it's been a steep learning curve, you can't really just 'wing it'. Also my summit will not tolerate/operate properly on questionable wood. I learned this the hard way by throwing in a few bottom feeder pieces of wood that my non epa stove would've eaten up like nothing and asked for more but the new summit didn't like or perform well on one bit.

I'll also add that I'm by no means an expert, still learning lots about this new stove myself. So I trust if any of my info is off the real experts will chime in and correct me. This has just been my experience so far.

 

[kslanicky]

And what temps should be I aiming for when I put a thermometer on the side of the stove??

Thanks for all the info - very helpful

 

[Squisher]

As far as placement and temps you should be looking for I'll defer to others that have an insert as on a freestanding stove like mine it'll be different. I only have a stovepipe thermometer mounted about 15" up on my single wall stovepipe. It is a condar magnetic one and I aim to operate in the 'best operation' zone which is between 230f-475f. By the time to reload my thermometer will be hovering around the 230f and when I load and increase air it'll heat right up to the top end and even a little beyond at times. I try to set my air on a reload so that the temp is rising through this zone somewhat slowly so that it allows the wood to offgas and char enough that when I cut the air back the secondary's will burn for the entire load and not go out early. Sometimes I don't 'nail' this and I'll end up having to open the air up again and heat things up and then cut it back again. If I loose secondary's early my temp will fall off down to the 230f or even a bit lower which is creosote up the chimney. The only time the temp should fall into that territory safely is when the whole load is coals so all of the 'creosote' is already burned off.

You obviously won't be able to measure stovepipe temps as I do so I'm just providing this as info. Hopefully others with summit inserts will chime in as to how they monitor theirs and what temps they are seeing. I hope to get a stovetop thermometer for Christmas so I can monitor things even more accurately.

Stovetop temps will be hotter than stovepipe temps.

 

[begreen]

And what temps should be I aiming for when I put a thermometer on the side of the stove??

~600F Calling @Dix for verification.

 

[Squisher]

Another good tip is if you think you have your load established and your air cut right back go outside and look at your chimney. If you are running properly you will have no smoke

 

[kslanicky]

Agreed on the 'no smoke' - - and that's typically how I try and manage it honestly.

Thanks again everyone... would love to hear about some 'ideal' temps to look for too if @Dix can help there!

 

[Heatsource]

typically damage like that is from severe overfiring, or burning alot of trash/cardboard etc.

i would certainly recommend replacing it, or at least having a replacement on hand as that baffle wont last much longer. probably get the side rails as well, they look corroded and maybe warped as well.

 

[Dix]

~600F Calling @Dix for verification.

Agreed on the 'no smoke' - - and that's typically how I try and manage it honestly.

Thanks again everyone... would love to hear about some 'ideal' temps to look for too if @Dix can help there!

The PE cruises at 600 - 700 F, with secondaries going for about 5 -7 hours, depending on the load size.

Air control ... all the way open to get it going, then once the fan starts to kick on, I usually cut it down in increments as the internal temp goes up. Once it hits 450 F or so, I'll shut it down to the right, unless the firewood is being persnickety :

 

[Starstuff]

Yeah, that stove has been abused...

It looks like the insulation pads for both the side rails and the baffle are gone (disintegrated?). You should replace it all with kaowool. The insulation material PE uses is garbage--one of the few weak spots in their product. My insulation blankets ripped when I was installing my insert. I didn't think it was a big deal and just stuffed it in. I was routinely getting glowing siderails even though I have never overfired the stove. Replaced the siderail insulation with thicker-than-OEM kaolwool and it immediately made a difference. No more glowing siderails, and the secondaries started shooting off quicker.

You'll also want to make yourself a new gasket to seal the area where the baffle sits on the secondary air tube. That can also be a source of extra air entering firebox. There is a thread about making the gasket from small door gasket material. (Again, the OEM part is garbage.)

Re: your question about further limiting the primary air; this is a common problem on the PEs and we were just discussing ita few weeks ago. See this thread for solution: Super 27 question

Re: temperature location. I use infrared reader and test on center of the faceplate just above the door. I think this will get you a more accurate reading closer to the actual temp on the top of the firebox.

Testing at this temperature location, my stove rarely goes to 600--maybe with a full load of oak--but I do always keep the blower on during the hottest phases of the burn. I also stagger damping and usually close the air to the lowest it can go by about 450F. If I'm burning less-than-optimal wood, I wait until 500. and I doubt I've ever had secondaries last more than 5 hours, but, I supposed many things are possible with primo fuel.

 

[begreen]

The PE cruises at 600 - 700 F

Thanks Dix. I wasn't certain what temps you see on the face of the Pacific. They seem the same as the top temps we see on the T6.

 

[Dix]

Thanks Dix. I wasn't certain what temps you see on the face of the Pacific. They seem the same as the top temps we see on the T6.

All things considered, I think the separation isn't that far apart.