Pellet stove inspection

[elkimmeg]

Today I inspected another harman Accentra Pellet stove the 5th this month. So what to a pellet stove inspection?
The pellet stove is sitting on a hearth where ther used to be a central open to two rooms fireplace one side already has A VC winnter warm wood stove and a full liner no block off plate. Mind you this flue liner is 16/16 plenty big The only way I would allow the pellet stove to share the chimney chase is:
#1 the pellet stove be fully lined and termination caps have 1' separation of discharge
#2 the pellet stove be connected to out side air feed ( I felt two competing appliances 18" apart would compete for the combustion air in close proximity)
#3 that damper plate must be sealed.

Permit issued

Inspection issues
#1 6" floor protection required in front of the pellet stove. There is none it is sitting on the very edge of the hearth
#2 the damper plate has enough space between liner pipes to fit a golf ball threw. Plus RTV cannot be used to seal the woode stove space. It looks like the emptied a half dozen RTV caulking tubes. It is everywhere globs on the woodstove pipe globs on the single wall flex pellet vent what a mess globs on the hearth
#3 Fresh air intake is 2 3/8" for a 15 foot run over 15' 3 " is required plus It must be 1' lower than the pelet exhaust which it is but at the same level at the wood stove exit 3 " away


#4 this is where I need advice. According to the manual After Harman is connected to the vent a draft test is required to set up the hi and low settings by measuring 15 volts and adjusting the adjustment screw. I requested that proof of a draft test be present.
before and after setup and adjustments. It is clearly stated in the manual as being required for proper setup. I want proof or documentation it was done . I look at this situation like any final mechanical inspection all, mechanical devices should be up and running properly for final inspection. I fell I am protecting the consumer In HvAC I require flow and balancing reports. To me this is no different. Oil burners shall be draft and effeciency tested What do you think? Is it fair for me to request draft testing proof or documentation?

 

[GVA]

Harry being the Harman dealer could be specific on this but I believe this draft adjustment is only to adjust the combustion blower to the voltage discrepencies between the household and when it was set up at the factory. If it is off per the draft readings only efficiency is lost.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

ummmmm thats going a little far. Checking the vacume is for combustion efficiency not saftey. If the stove isnt running right then its up to the dealerto tweak it. Plus no one i know documents it, they just tune it at the end of the install and leave.

 

[elkimmeg]

there are 3 Harman retailers in the area this is the first installation from the RI dealer. The other two fill out page 11 of the manual during setup with the draft readings. This firm did not
Accentra Pellet Stove.
(broken link removed to http://www.harmanstoves.com/support.asp)

I realise that it is not a safety issue but effeciency. However I repeat, I consider this a Mechanical inspection and that It should be adjusted and setup correctly. I consider all mechanical equipment should be adjusted and functioning correctly before final sign off.

On the HVAC end I check that the unit works and I check for the float pan shut off works I check for air leaks I stuff a ball in the exhaust to make sure the automatic shut down is working in the pvc vents. I have when I had my draft meter, tested oil burners. to verify the correctness of what has been reported.

Then again I posted my concerns I have second thoughts that maybe requiring the draft testing and setup is over steeping where I should be. Not all mechanical inspoections are life safety issues but there are plenty of codes that require effeciency testing like an oil burner. If I turn on a gas stove and see yellow flames I know something is not functioning right

 

[GVA]

there are 3 Harman retailers in the area this is the first installation from the RI dealer. The other two fill out page 11 of the manual during setup with the draft readings. This firm did not
Accentra Pellet Stove.
(broken link removed to http://www.harmanstoves.com/support.asp)

I realise that it is not a safety issue but effeciency. However I repeat, I consider this a Mechanical inspection and that It should be adjusted and setup correctly. I consider all mechanical equipment should be adjusted and functioning correctly before final sign off.

On the HVAC end I check that the unit works and I check for the float pan shut off works I check for air leaks I stuff a ball in the exhaust to make sure the automatic shut down is working in the pvc vents. I have when I had my draft meter, tested oil burners. to verify the correctness of what has been reported.

Then again I posted my concerns I have second thoughts that maybe requiring the draft testing and setup is over steeping where I should be. Not all mechanical inspoections are life safety issues but there are plenty of codes that require effeciency testing like an oil burner. If I turn on a gas stove and see yellow flames I know something is not functioning right

No offense
but for example my advance the page your talking about is on page 10.
it states the low draft voltage should be adjusted to achieve the most efficient burn on low burn or on maintenance. This voltage adjustment allows the installer to change the low voltage set point approximately 15 volts this should be done by the installer during setup because a draft meter reading is required to ensure proper setup.
If the unit is not adjusted properly, it does not cause a safety concern. If the unit is adjusted too high, only efficiency is lost. If adjusted too low the low draft pressure switch will not allow the feeder or ignitor to operate.
It then gives you the space to record the high and low draft readings. But if you think about it who is this info for and why does it need to be recorded?
The homeowner may have no Idea what this means and they are the ones who keep the owners manual.
As far as over stepping boundaries your not BUT unless your ordinance requires it, it should not be of concern..... That would be like saying you cant have that outlet installed until you get the voltage coming into the house to be 120vac 60hz (per leg of course) because the microwave company says that it is UL listed for use at 120 volts........... It's a fine line here there is a % of variation for voltage drops there must be a % for stoves and drafts.

It may be required in the future but these things take time.... What is the code for direct vents here in Mass now as opposed to say a year ago maybe two or is it the same?
I know a couple of instances a year where people die because they don't go outside and clear the vent pipes of snow and die of CO remember the code was only 18" from the ground...
We had here in my town every year, at least one 2 foot snowfall This is in my opinion what needs to be enforced if I had a direct vent furnace installed 5 years ago and code said it had to be at 18" would I be grandfathered in or should the cities and towns require people to modify their vents based on the current codes, and fatalities.

Again I'm not trying to offend you but it may be a bit much.

As far as filling out the draft pressures on a pressure vented system I would not think that this is as much of a concern as a system that relies on the natural draft of heat rising to a chimney such as a hot water heater or a furnace.

And what's the spread on the Pats and Bengals game tomorrow?????

 

[elkimmeg]

Not offended this forum is educational to me. I value oppinions. We passed new Co laws as of April one every dwelling with combustiable fuel has to have co detectors. The 18" to ground also says it has to be 1' above average snow dept what ever that is ?
Every home that changes ownership has to have a certificate of compliance for co detectors simmilar to smoke detector requirements.
No direct vent can be less that 4' above ground and if under 7' a sign attached informing there is a vent below ( new construction only) I stuff a tennis ball in the 2.5" pvc ones to cause automatic shutdown. I have also required a plumbing plug to be installed on other sizes. In this case this is a life safety issue that I want proof that the safety of automatic shutdown does work.

6 pt spread

 

[HarryBack]

ummmmm thats going a little far. Checking the vacume is for combustion efficiency not saftey. If the stove isnt running right then its up to the dealerto tweak it. Plus no one i know documents it, they just tune it at the end of the install and leave.

no, MSG, I dont agree...it ISNT going "a little too far". There are far too many reasons to test the draft of a pellet stove with a magnahelic not to do it, especially in the chimney application that Elk describes! In many cases, the homeowner does the install, and since few homeowners own a magnahelic, they often go unchecked, and i dont advocate this practice. In ALL of the installs we do, we check the draft...ALL of them. We then tune the stove and write down the readings on the inside cover of the owners manual. The stove is supposedly set at Harman, but needs to be "tweaked" due to the differences in installs, chimneys, etc. This reading is exceedingly useful, especially if we have to go back later and diagnose problems. One of the first things you do on a service call, after looking at the control board and seeing what the settings are, is look at the manual for those draft settings, and check the draft. Usually its a cleaning issue, somethings plugging, like the heat exchanger tubes in the FS Accentra. This greatly alters the draft readings and gives the service tech an idea where to start.
Therein lies the problem. Since a goodly amount of folks do their own installs they dont check draft, not owning a magnahelic. We will gladly go check draft and adjust on a self-install, but we wont do it for free. Checking an install, draft, isnt a cost of doing business, when typically it'll take a tech 1-3 hours to do so,depending upon where the client is. I know Ill likely get bashed from some folks saying we should do it for free, but its hard to justify that when the customer is doing their own install to save $275.00 .

Anyways, even though i dont always agree with Elk, I DO agree that draft should be checked, adjusted, and recorded on a new stove.

 

[webbie]

Sounds like the self-install is not really the best idea - $275 minus the cost of getting it adjusted right = small savings.

Maybe it's because my back and shoulders hurt from moving my entire shop and warehouse over the last week - to say nothing of all that sheet rock work! I need a week off (of heavy physical activity) as well as a massage.

 

[webbie]

RE: Distance above ground - I'm going to go with about 2 1/2 feet for my fresh air intake- the exhaust will be 7 feet above ground, so unless we have record drifts that should be OK.

RE: What inspector should do - maybe a good compromise is to simply suggest to the customer or leave a form with a little checkbox as to what they should do for safety and operation. In other words, you are telling them but not enforcing it. After all, you can't save some people from themselves!

A property manager contacted me recently with some questions about a gas fireplace - turns out that some renters have actually removed the glass from DV units and place real wood in them! No, there is NOTHING that is beyond possibility. Someday.....someone is going to call Harryback to a Pellet stove that won't work - and he will find cordwood splits sticking out the top of the hopper....yes, this and worse will happen.

 

[elkimmeg]

Craig 7' is not nesessary anything over 4' works on the fresh air intake that too might benifit from aditional height it gives yoou more clearance from snow dept. But I know you will examine and clear out situations that could occure with drifting.

The new codes are an attempt to idiot proof lazy un informed owners Something had to be done when the familly in Plymouth died I think it is called the Emilly codes after the young daughter got aphixiated. This happens after every heavy snow storm with drifting

 

[GVA]

Craig 7' is not nesessary anything over 4' works on the fresh air intake that too might benifit from aditional height it gives yoou more clearance from snow dept. But I know you will examine and clear out situations that could occure with drifting.

The new codes are an attempt to idiot proof lazy un informed owners Something had to be done when the familly in Plymouth died I think it is called the Emilly codes after the young daughter got aphixiated. This happens after every heavy snow storm with drifting

Elk can we do something about idiot proofing the idiots that run gas powered generators in the house during power failures too :lol:

 

[elkimmeg]

Funny you should ask we have a board of health that requires a plug at the fuse pannel to plug in a generator for pump up septic systems. The plug is inside the cellar. I have told them they are the board of health and the co will kill the residence yet they still insist on insid pig tail plugs . Flushing your toilet could kill you for some reason they can't see why the plug should be outside ? this is the board of health?

 

[BrotherBart]

Elk can we do something about idiot proofing the idiots that run gas powered generators in the house during power failures too :lol:

I wouldn't move my generator inside even if it wasn't for CO. It is a one lunger Tecumseh I have had for a very long time. Damn thing is so noisy I bet the neighbors are calling the power company every fifteen minutes bugging them to get the power back on so I will shut it off. And we have five acre lots.

 

[GVA]

Elk can we do something about idiot proofing the idiots that run gas powered generators in the house during power failures too :lol:

I wouldn't move my generator inside even if it wasn't for CO. It is a one lunger Tecumseh I have had for a very long time. Damn thing is so noisy I bet the neighbors are calling the power company every fifteen minutes bugging them to get the power back on so I will shut it off. And we have five acre lots.

Unfortunatly some residents here in Mass have the small portable one stored in the basement and start them up in the basement. :bug:
And it seems to happen at least once a year here..... and we hear about it on the news.... I think someone actualy died last winter from this....

 

[GVA]

Heres another one for you ELK per the Manual under venting on page 18 of the advance model
"DO NOT CONNECT THIS UNIT TO A CHIMNEY FLUE SERVING ANOTHER APPLIANCE"
and another
"DO NOT INSTALL IN A SLEEPING ROOM" What????????

 

[elkimmeg]

Ever her about the idiots that have genertors plug int to the pannel when the power gets restored and blows the generators.

Where has connon sense gone? people have conversions plugs for generators installe from thei pannels inside the cellar. That would work if they had an exhanst vent recovery system to the outside. then there is the issue of a generator witha gasoline in the cellar? not the smartest place for it. I once did an inspection of an insert in the cellar where there was a walk out stored there was the snow blower lawn mower and a 5 gallon gas can no more that 5' from the stove People gas machinery and storage belongs in a detached shed

 

[GVA]

gasoline in the cellar? not the smartest place for it. I once did an inspection of an insert in the cellar where there was a walk out stored there was the snow blower lawn mower and a 5 gallon gas can no more that 5' from the stove People gas machinery and storage belongs in a detached shed

HMMMM! That sounds familiar didn't that come up a couple of weeks ago with stoves in garages?

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

ummmmm thats going a little far. Checking the vacume is for combustion efficiency not saftey. If the stove isnt running right then its up to the dealerto tweak it. Plus no one i know documents it, they just tune it at the end of the install and leave.

no, MSG, I dont agree...it ISNT going "a little too far". There are far too many reasons to test the draft of a pellet stove with a magnahelic not to do it, especially in the chimney application that Elk describes! In many cases, the homeowner does the install, and since few homeowners own a magnahelic, they often go unchecked, and i dont advocate this practice. In ALL of the installs we do, we check the draft...ALL of them. We then tune the stove and write down the readings on the inside cover of the owners manual. The stove is supposedly set at Harman, but needs to be "tweaked" due to the differences in installs, chimneys, etc. This reading is exceedingly useful, especially if we have to go back later and diagnose problems. One of the first things you do on a service call, after looking at the control board and seeing what the settings are, is look at the manual for those draft settings, and check the draft. Usually its a cleaning issue, somethings plugging, like the heat exchanger tubes in the FS Accentra. This greatly alters the draft readings and gives the service tech an idea where to start.
Therein lies the problem. Since a goodly amount of folks do their own installs they dont check draft, not owning a magnahelic. We will gladly go check draft and adjust on a self-install, but we wont do it for free. Checking an install, draft, isnt a cost of doing business, when typically it'll take a tech 1-3 hours to do so,depending upon where the client is. I know Ill likely get bashed from some folks saying we should do it for free, but its hard to justify that when the customer is doing their own install to save $275.00 .

Anyways, even though i dont always agree with Elk, I DO agree that draft should be checked, adjusted, and recorded on a new stove.

well chalk it up to my ignorance, I dont know harmans, but i do know whitfields, and quads dont even have a place to check pressure with a magnihelic. Its not the inpectors job to check pressure, its the installers job. If there is a saftey issue if a harmon is not tuned properly, then so be it. So Harry, unless there is somthing strange about Harmon, that makes them dangerous to intstall, and having the magenhelic readings availble for the inspector, i can respecfully disagree. I know you are the man with pellet stoves, I dont pretend to be, but to require and written mag reading for a pellet stove is rediculious. Im glad i sell quads, my mag is on the shelf collecting dust.
Im not saying that it doesnt need to be checked. But it doenst need to be checked by the inspector, thats the installers job.

 

[elkimmeg]

MSG I don't check the draft I want to see evidence the installers checked it

 

[Hammerjoe]

I had my accentra professionally installed and the guy did not do a draft test, he said that it wasnt needed, even after I showed him the manual that said that it should be performed...

It was an odd situation for me, because I knew nothing about installations, I only have the manual that sugests it to be done and then I have a professional that installed hundreds of stoves telling me that it is not necessary...
I can't really argue with him about it.

 

[HarryBack]

Well, the manual says to check it......GVA confirms that. The inspector has to ensure that the unit has been installed in accordance with the owners' manual......so, the reason for not checking the draft is.......? If you can check the draft, and the owners manual says you should, why wouldnt you? its also a valuable diagnostic tool once can use later. Can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Well, the manual says to check it......GVA confirms that. The inspector has to ensure that the unit has been installed in accordance with the owners' manual......so, the reason for not checking the draft is.......? If you can check the draft, and the owners manual says you should, why wouldnt you? its also a valuable diagnostic tool once can use later. Can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink.

Ohh i agree that it needs to be checked and tuned, no question about that, i just dont believe that its the inspectors job to make shure that was done. I feel that its the installers job, and the dealers job, and the homeowners job, to make shure that the initial setup of the stove is done properly. I think its the inspectors job to make shure that its installed per code and local ordenances. I dont think that the pressure test is a punch list item. The inspection process is there to maintain a reasonable margin of saftey, and that its installed properly. I dont see inspectors here requiring draft tests of woodstoves, and that test is just as important as the draft test on a pellet stove. There needs to be a line drawn where inspectors need to stop. I think its there job to maintain a SAFE installation, not one that necessarly works. Your inspector cant ding you for having a 8' chimmey when the manufacture requires a 14'. If its installed properly he will sign off on it. Inspection issues need to be limited to the saftey of house and home, and satisfy the manufacturs mechanical instructions. Operation, draft, tuning, cleaning, pellet fuel, all those need to be left up to the dealer, installer, manufacture and homeowner to work out. Of course, that just my opinion. I guess i could use that as a selling point, "hey if you buy a harmon, the inspector is going to want to see records of your draft readings" "buy my quad, there is very little that the inspector can require to pass!" that way you dont have to worry about the homowner DIY having a magnehelic. ;-)

 

[seaken]

I'm with Harry on the principle of following the instructions in the manual. I'm also with MSG on the fact that inspectors do not have to enforce it. Nevertheless, as is always the case, the authority having jurisdiction has the final say. If it is policy of the AHJ to verify compliance with the owner's manual than he/she would be within thier right to require a pressure test in the case of a Harman.

It is a good idea. Even with a Quad. The more information a technican has the better able to his/her job of diagnosing and solving problems. So, The best installers will do it, even if it is not required. The mediocre installers will skip it because it is not required. That's what seperates us from the average handy-man DIYer. Do it right, the first time. And don't let the homeowner point out the page in the manual that instructs you to do what you skipped.

Elk, if I were you I would strongly suggest that the instructions in the manual be followed but not work too hard to enforce the issue.

Sean

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

when we first got the quads back in the late 90' we spent about half the day looking for the hole to plug the magnehelic in, after we called them, they said there wasnt one. On the whitfield, we always adjusted the stove with a magnehelic. Whitfields were not very DIY back then, are Harmons geared to the DIY market like quads? quads come with a movie on how to install it. Scary stuff coming from the whitfield industry.

 

[Hammerjoe]

My point was, what can I do if the professional is telling me that it doesnt need to be checked because there is no need even if the manual says so??

I think I will give them a call and ask to have the draft test done anyway.