Perplexing and ongoing problem with water dripping into the fireplace

[mistersippi]

Hi y'all,

Thanks in advance with any advice y'all can provide I'm getting very frustrated with a leak in my chimney. Any advice would be helpful!

Long story short, bought an older ranch-style house several years ago that had been newly remodeled. It's rather large with a double flue. Not long after moving in, noticed rain dripping into fireplace. Called a "chimney expert" to check it out. He said we needed a "cricket" built into the roof and around the chimney and quoted us an exorbitant amount of money to build it to fix the problem. He also mentioned that it was him and his crew that installed the chimney cap in the first place when the house was being remodeled before we bought it. So he had experience with our chimney. The price was too much for us at that point. We knew a guy that was a handyman and metal fabricator who said he could fabricate us a metal cricket piece for next to nothing. He did and installed it. And...still water getting into the fireplace. So we just dealt with the problem for a couple of years. But as time passed the dripping has gotten worse. I climbed up on the roof and started looking around as well as trying to read up about chimneys and leaks and what can cause them. I noticed that there were deep cracks in the mortar on the top of the chimney. I also noticed that in the past those cracks had silicone applied to them. So maybe that was a lead? (But, why didn't the chimney expert fix the problem in the first place when remodeling!?) Also noticed the chimney cap was replaced when the house was being remodeled. There's a faint outline of where the old chimney cap used to sit. And the newer chimney cap appears shorter than the last (or just put on in a different position?) The edge of the cap comes awfully close to one of the flues. Called a roofing company to come check it the chimney leak. They seemed to also think the leak was getting in through the cracks in the mortar. They removed the chimney cap and applied some sort of sealant to the mortar and reinstalled the chimney cap. Once it rained again I noticed in fact, that had not worked at all. Water was still getting into the fireplace. I called the roofing company and they sent some kid out with a caulk gun and I guess tried caulking the cracks with silicone. Well, it rained again, and still, water is getting in! I'm starting to get very frustrated. Don't know what to do.

So, my questions for y'all are:
1. Do you think rain is getting into the flue because the cap isn't fitted properly?
2. Or is rain soaking through the cracks of the mortar? If so, what is the sealant the roofing company put on the mortar? And does it just need more?
3. Or is rain getting in where the cricket is located? (I'll add that I haven't noticed any stains around the ceiling where the chimney and drywall/crown molding meet.
4. As a last resort should I just permanently seal the flue? I live in Mississippi where the winters are mild anyway. And don't actually use the fireplace.
5. Or any other advice or tips to where the water might be getting in?

I'm attaching recent pics of the most recent work made by the roofing company. Thank y'all so very much for any advice!!

 

[DAKSY]

For starters, it looks to me that the chimney is not "crowned" correctly.
There is no beveling of the concrete to enable water to run away from
your flue tiles & no drip edge to allow that water to drip instead of running
down the sides of the chimney...Others may chime in now...

 

[mistersippi]

For starters, it looks to me that the chimney is not "crowned" correctly.
There is no beveling of the concrete to enable water to run away from
your flue tiles & no drip edge to allow that water to drip instead of running
down the sides of the chimney...Others may chime in now...

View attachment 259725

Does a chimney absolutely have to have a crown on it? Are those expensive and complicated to build onto the existing chimney?

 

[DAKSY]

No idea on the cost, & yours would be unique to your chimney.
I'd wait for other responses as to the actual problem you've got.
I could be wrong.

 

[Corey]

Looks like possibly a '60's / early 70's vintage chimney. Presumably it hasn't been leaking all that time, so what has changed?

Cap isn't fitted? - Is the cap it has now different, or more poorly fitted then one it previously had? (Current cap seems to be 'OK' - definitely hard to see it being worse than something which was there.)

Cricket - well the cricket is new, so unless it's actually causing a leak, or has improperly band-aided some other issue, it's not the cause. One key would be how much roof is 'above' the chimney? With that relatively shallow slope, even 10-12 feet of roof 'uphill' isn't likely to shed a bunch of water at the chimney, so not much need for the cricket. Would definitely be nice if the flashing went up higher on the chimney, though!

Crown - certainly would be nice to have some crown there, but presumably the chimney made it decades without one? But with it being almost flat, any small crack (chimney top itself, between the top and flue tile, etc)has the potential to let in water.

Mortar cracks - Well, those could certainly have 'opened up' over time. Given no drip edge on the crown, that could certainly make cracks in the mortar leak worse as the water sheets down the side of the chimney.

Bare minimum, I'd repoint all the mortar cracks and stack a couple hocks of mortar on the crown to create some slope (or do it right and pour a nice crown/drip edge/flue seal), then see where that gets you. I would definitely not 'seal off' the flue until you get the water stopped. Wet + sealed is a recipe for mold, rot, fungus, etc.

Good luck!

 

[blades]

From the pic looks like at one time there might have been one up there, but no matter because you could simply crown it with some fast dry packaged stuff.
Now can the assembly leak through the mortar Joints between the bricks and internally between the flue tiles- Yes There are various sealants that can be applied with a garden sprayer to stop that problem from the out side in ( not Thompsons stuff though) I have had to do that to 3 or four chimneys over the years. The last one was back in the 80's . With the advent of the super efficient furnaces and hot water heaters you no longer have the standing pilot light. That used to keep condensation from forming in the flue ( spring and fall with the temps swings mostly) combined with the left overs from combustion creates an acid that leaches the lime from the mortar joints - externaly acid rain causes same problem. I have also seen when the companies make a full metal cap which works , I just do not like the look. In reall bad cases - I ended up haveing to tear the system down part way and rebuild it. Sometimes you can get away with just tuck pointing and then sealing ( pia).

 

[spudman99]

That cricket which the handyman installed looks to me to be the problem. It looks really bad if I am reading the photos correctly. The upslope side does not look to be flashed under the roof shingles, but rather caulked down. There is no counter flashing over the section that is attached to the chimney, rather it looks screwed to the brick and caulked. Both are inadequate and not in conformance with best practices. Here is a picture of a proper cricket or saddle

 

[bholler]

I see a few problems any of which could be causing the problem. The existing wash crown is cracked letting water in the cricket isn't counterflashed it is just caulked it could be letting water in and if it isn't the caulk will break down before long and it will leak. Where the cricket meets the roof doesn't look right either.

I can't see the mortar well enough to see if it has cracks but that could be a factor as well.

 

[mistersippi]

Looks like possibly a '60's / early 70's vintage chimney. Presumably it hasn't been leaking all that time, so what has changed?

Cap isn't fitted? - Is the cap it has now different, or more poorly fitted then one it previously had? (Current cap seems to be 'OK' - definitely hard to see it being worse than something which was there.)

Cricket - well the cricket is new, so unless it's actually causing a leak, or has improperly band-aided some other issue, it's not the cause. One key would be how much roof is 'above' the chimney? With that relatively shallow slope, even 10-12 feet of roof 'uphill' isn't likely to shed a bunch of water at the chimney, so not much need for the cricket. Would definitely be nice if the flashing went up higher on the chimney, though!

Crown - certainly would be nice to have some crown there, but presumably the chimney made it decades without one? But with it being almost flat, any small crack (chimney top itself, between the top and flue tile, etc)has the potential to let in water.

Mortar cracks - Well, those could certainly have 'opened up' over time. Given no drip edge on the crown, that could certainly make cracks in the mortar leak worse as the water sheets down the side of the chimney.

Bare minimum, I'd repoint all the mortar cracks and stack a couple hocks of mortar on the crown to create some slope (or do it right and pour a nice crown/drip edge/flue seal), then see where that gets you. I would definitely not 'seal off' the flue until you get the water stopped. Wet + sealed is a recipe for mold, rot, fungus, etc.

Good luck!

Thank you for your advice! You're right, it was built in 1963. And remodeled head to toe in 2014. Not long after we moved in we noticed it was leaking a little. At that time there was no cricket whatsoever and so the cricket is fairly new.

So it is ok to add more mortar to whats already up there? The roofing crew added some sort of sealant on the top (might be hard to see in the pics.) Mortar can go on top of the sealant? Can you happen to tell what that stuff is they put on it?

 

[mistersippi]

That cricket which the handyman installed looks to me to be the problem. It looks really bad if I am reading the photos correctly. The upslope side does not look to be flashed under the roof shingles, but rather caulked down. There is no counter flashing over the section that is attached to the chimney, rather it looks screwed to the brick and caulked. Both are inadequate and not in conformance with best practices. Here is a picture of a proper cricket or saddle

View attachment 259735

Thank you for this info! I might be leaning toward the idea of the roofing company to rip out the old cricket and put a new one in. What seems to be the best route when it comes to this? Some sort of metal cricket or building it out of the roof?

 

[mistersippi]

I see a few problems any of which could be causing the problem. The existing wash crown is cracked letting water in the cricket isn't counterflashed it is just caulked it could be letting water in and if it isn't the caulk will break down before long and it will leak. Where the cricket meets the roof doesn't look right either.

I can't see the mortar well enough to see if it has cracks but that could be a factor as well.

Thanks for this info. I believe I might ask for the roofing company to make a new cricket. And yes, the mortar was definitely cracked. It looks alot better since the roofing crew put some sealant on, but sadly it's still leaking.

 

[bholler]

Thanks for this info. I believe I might ask for the roofing company to make a new cricket. And yes, the mortar was definitely cracked. It looks alot better since the roofing crew put some sealant on, but sadly it's still leaking.

The cricket structure is fine it just needs installed properly. I would start by having the cricket installed properly and having the crown replaced. And sealant is not a proper fix for cracks in masonry. Sometimes it can actually make the problem worse. Have a mason or chimney sweep who does masonry fix the masonry let the roofers work on the roof.

 

[mistersippi]

The cricket structure is fine it just needs installed properly. I would start by having the cricket installed properly and having the crown replaced.

Thank you! This has been super helpful.

 

[BigJ273]

Thank you! This has been super helpful.

I also recommend having a good qualified Mason come out and take a look. Tuck pointing mortar and replacing the crown are not super expensive. I recently had it done and was pleased with the cost, considering the labor involved. As for the cricket, it looks pretty shady, at best. Find a qualified respectable roofing company to fix it. You’re gonna have to face the music and bite the bullet unfortunately, leaks only get worse if not corrected the right way. Your home’s roofing system is one of its most important parts.

 

[jotul8e2]

Going to largely parrot what was said above:

The cricket is not flashed, and the (probably) silicone caulk is making it worse. Silicone is loved by carpenters, and they will use it on anything. However, silicone caulk has the curious property of adhering to asphalt shingles so strongly that you can never really get it off while simultaneously failing utterly to provide a waterproof seal. I really do not see an alternative to tearing that out and framing a proper cricket with proper flashing and valleys.

The cracked crown needs to be repaired or replaced with one that has a proper slope.

Cracked and missing mortar is always a problem with bricks, but you appear to have cast concrete bricks. Somehow they always seem to leak worse than fired brick, and they will seep. I had a large concrete "brick" flue - actually three flues in one - on a previous residence that caused me headaches for 20 years. I found that sprayed on sealer kept me dry for three or four years. I note the post above that says this can sometimes cause even more problems. I would be very interested to know what the alternative is - or rather what I should have done instead. That roof was 12/12 pitch and it was not much fun to work up there.

 

[bholler]

Going to largely parrot what was said above:

The cricket is not flashed, and the (probably) silicone caulk is making it worse. Silicone is loved by carpenters, and they will use it on anything. However, silicone caulk has the curious property of adhering to asphalt shingles so strongly that you can never really get it off while simultaneously failing utterly to provide a waterproof seal. I really do not see an alternative to tearing that out and framing a proper cricket with proper flashing and valleys.

The cracked crown needs to be repaired or replaced with one that has a proper slope.

Cracked and missing mortar is always a problem with bricks, but you appear to have cast concrete bricks. Somehow they always seem to leak worse than fired brick, and they will seep. I had a large concrete "brick" flue - actually three flues in one - on a previous residence that caused me headaches for 20 years. I found that sprayed on sealer kept me dry for three or four years. I note the post above that says this can sometimes cause even more problems. I would be very interested to know what the alternative is - or rather what I should have done instead. That roof was 12/12 pitch and it was not much fun to work up there.

I said sealers are not a fix for cracks. If you had overly porous brick yes a dealer is appropriate

 

[xman23]

Where water is coming in can be hard to find. But it always goes down. It can even be above the cricket, following the rafters to the masonry chimney. Can you get in the attic when its raining. If its coming in external of the masonry you should be able to see it, and follow it north to the leak.

The good news is the brick looks good, so it would be a shame to give up on the fireplaces because of a leak. The cricket, if not flashed correctly under the shingles could be a problem. As said the top could be the issue. Are the two chimneys fireplaces? If one is a furnace you could do this but it needs to be shutdown. If your comfortable with this, I world tarp off only the top. Next rain storm, see if it solves the problem. Good luck.

 

[fire_man]

If your comfortable with this, I world tarp off only the top. Next rain storm, see if it solves the problem. Good luck.

Best suggestion yet!

 

[bholler]

Best suggestion yet!

That could help diagnose the immediate problem. But the other problems I listed need to be fixed because they will cause leaks soon if they aren't now.