Placement of CO detector question

[Jay H]

Been so warm over here, didn't have a fire yesterday in my wood stove, but I moved my Carbon Monoxide detector from my bedroom to an A/C outlet right on the side of my wood stove, would this be problematic with false positives? When I'm burning, I typically leave my bedroom door open for the circulation, I'm sure I can hear the alarm from the room where the stove is in for sure, so that is not an issue. The CM detector is an A/C unit that has a LED screen on it which actually states the ppm level of the CO, but it should obviously show a problem faster than having it in my bedroom which is where it was put when I bought this place. (before the wood stove was installed).

Jay

 

[Rhone]

Saw a show on CO detectors. Here's the results of the firefighters tests:

CO detectors at the ceiling went off first, followed by those placed in the middle of walls, followed by those placed near the floor. Also, CO detectors only last 6-7 years. The fire department put a couple CO Detector over 6 years old and one went off well beyond the others when the levels were already very dangerous, the other NEVER went off.

Their explanation was, CO is often produced by a source that makes heat and heat rises. So, the CO is coming out hot and hot air naturally rises and it carried the CO with it to the ceiling units first, followed by the middle placed ones, followed by the floor placed units. Knowing that, you can get a sense of where it should go, and near the stove is not a good choice as the CO will rise up off the stove, travel to the far ends, drop to the floor and come back to your stove where finally it reaches the CO Detector.

 

[MALogger]

When I installed my CM detectors it gave placement instructions. I have 2 one in the basement near the boiler, wood stove and hot water heater then another one one the main floor near bedrooms. Add a second one they are fairly inexpensive. The instructions with mine said if you are only going to have one then put it near your sleeping area!

Hope that helps!

Craig

 

[Rhone]

MALogger makes a good point, normally with burning wood if you're going to get CO poisoning it's usually the gases come out one flue, and are sucked down the flue of another appliance. So, you get situations where your wood stove flue gases are coming out the chimney and being sucked down your boiler flue into your basement and start accumulating dangerous levels. MALogger takes care of that situation having one placed near his boiler down there. Also, good point about being near the bedrooms. You can smell your wood stove is leaking fumes and something's wrong, but if you're sleeping you may not notice the smell.

 

[elkimmeg]

Ma code requires one in the space of the appliance and one toutside to protect the sleeping areas Plug in are not considered permanent an can be blocked bu furnature and pulled out by kids or pets. Basically place them near you current smoke detectors near stair ways

 

[Gooserider]

I have a few questions about CO detectors - We haven't put any in, know that we should :red: The house currently has three hard wired Firex model FADC / 4618 smoke detectors installed. (they were put in ~2000, replacing some earlier units) Firex makes a combined Smoke & CO detector (broken link removed) that looks like a direct plug in replacement. It appears to be readily available off the net for about $40 Anyone have any experience with these, good, bad, or indifferent?

Am I reasonably safe in assuming that anyplace where a smoke detector was good would also be OK for a CO detector?

I notice they don't seem to have the readout for CO concentration that some posters mention having on their units - does this make that much difference?

I also have a question as relates to placement and code / safety. As I mentioned there are three units, two I think are pretty good for location, but I'm not sure about the third.

Unit 1. - The living room is a large cathedral space, contains the wood stove. There is an open flight of stairs to a landing / loft area on the 2nd floor, which leads to the master suite. The SD is at the top of this flight of stairs, just outside the door to the master suite. I think this is a good spot?

Unit 2. - Next to the living room is a kitchen / dining area (with a gas stove) on the other side of this area is a hall that T's off to two spaces that we currently use as offices, but probably would be counted as bedrooms, and the bath. The SD is in the ceiling of this hall. This is the one we are most positive works, as it occasionally gets set off by over enthusiastic cooking :lol: Judging by that, I think this is also a good spot, certainly its the only place that would give coverage to those two rooms.

Unit 3. - There is a flight of stairs going from the KD area down to the basement, right under the flight described in Unit 1 above. It opens into a large basement "rec room" which contains our almost never used backup stove, and leads to the room that has the gas HVAC furnace and water-heater. The stairs are totally open. The SD is in the basement ceiling at the foot of the stairs.
Presumably this would catch any smoke from basement fires before it got upstairs, but I'm not sure if it is 100% OK, as my reading of the code suggests that I really should have a detector in the actual room that has the furnace and h/w heater?

Do we actually need a detector in that room? If I do, is a standalone unit OK? (it would be a pain to tie into the other three existing units?

Also we have a gas clothes drier in a laundry room between the garage and the living room where the woodstove is, again with no detector in that room, although presumably any problem would be picked up by the same detector that would pick up problems with the wood stove. - Again is this a room that actually needs a detector, or is the current setup OK?

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

Goose you can replace the smokes with combo units but use the same model and manufacturer. As for LCD readouts as long as they work knowing the exact levels is less important
You also can use battery not connected units in the other two locations..

A word about smoke detectors there are two types ion and photoelectric

Cheaper and most common is the ion detectors. What they do best is detect the presence of open flame. Unfortunately they arw woofully inaduquate in detecting soldering fires.

Photo electric will detect the smoldering fire a lot sooner than the ion ones, but will not detect the open fire as soon.

Back when smoke detectors were required by code the bigest danger was open flames From that imme forward Ul and other agencies started mandating fire retardents in furnature drape materials and rugs to some extent beding. Homes today, are more likely to experience smoldering fires a lot longer before they erupt into flames.

Went the first ion smoke detector came out they were so sensitive firemen answered too many false alarms They requested the manufactures, to make the ion detectors less sensitive which they did That explains the reason they do not detect the smoldering fire as early as they should. In Ma the fire marshals have submitted a Code proposal requiring dual detectors ion and photo electric. I think a 3 way combo has now come to market ,including CO detection. Probably expensive

 

[MrGriz]

It's a bit OT, but I recnetly saw a bell type fire detector that was triggered by heat. It was basically a round metal bell that was wound with a key and attached to the ceiling. There was a special plastic disc that would melt, I think at 120 or 140 degrees, activating the bell, which would ring for approximately two minutes. The thing was loud as all get out and sounded just like an old school bell.

I have no idea how well something like this would work. I like the fact that it doesn't rely on any power source to operate; just mechanically wind it and you're good to go.

Has anyone seen anything like this or have experience with these?

 

[elkimmeg]

smoke dampers work with the same principle a fuseable link melts out and the spring loaded damper closes

 

[Gooserider]

Goose you can replace the smokes with combo units but use the same model and manufacturer. As for LCD readouts as long as they work knowing the exact levels is less important
You also can use battery not connected units in the other two locations..

A word about smoke detectors there are two types ion and photoelectric

Cheaper and most common is the ion detectors. What they do best is detect the presence of open flame. Unfortunately they arw woofully inaduquate in detecting soldering fires.

Photo electric will detect the smoldering fire a lot sooner than the ion ones, but will not detect the open fire as soon.

Back when smoke detectors were required by code the bigest danger was open flames From that imme forward Ul and other agencies started mandating fire retardents in furnature drape materials and rugs to some extent beding. Homes today, are more likely to experience smoldering fires a lot longer before they erupt into flames.

Went the first ion smoke detector came out they were so sensitive firemen answered too many false alarms They requested the manufactures, to make the ion detectors less sensitive which they did That explains the reason they do not detect the smoldering fire as early as they should. In Ma the fire marshals have submitted a Code proposal requiring dual detectors ion and photo electric. I think a 3 way combo has now come to market ,including CO detection. Probably expensive

Well, I don't know, these Firex detectors say they are Ion detectors, but they certainly do a good job of detecting stuff that is smoldering on the stove (I.E. pots that boiled dry, or smoking bacon, etc) We've also set them off by burning to many candles.

In terms of the furnace room and laundry, If we put combo units in the three hard wired places, how much added safety would we get from putting them in those two rooms? One of the issues I sometimes have with code is that they don't always account for the cost vs. benefit, and this seems like it might be one of those cases. Unless we try to sell the house, odds are pretty good we aren't going to have a problem with inspection otherwise, so I'm more worried about safety than the strict letter of the code....

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

Got an interesting reply from Firex Tech Support today.... It sounds like those changes Elk was talking about have gone through.

Firex model 12000 is combination smoke / CO detector but MA state code requires the smoke side use a photo electric sensor and when in alarm the detector speaks in English whether the alarm is for smoke or CO.

Firex has a combination detector in development that will meet the MA state code but it is not yet available. If you can wait 2 to 3 months, your local Home Depots should have these new units.

Note: No display will be on the combination detector showing the level of CO. The unit is designed to alarm when a 70 ppm of CO is detected over a 2 hour period.

I have a plug in CO detector that I stuck in the garage a few years back, sounds like my best bet for now is to pull that unit out and stick it in the living room with the stove for now, and worry about replacing the hard-wired smoke detectors later after the new models come out.

The other option is if someone knows of a different MFG smoke detector that would be compatible with the wiring for the Firex units. (I can change connectors if needed, the current units have three wires, I believe they are hot, neutral and signal)

Gooserider

 

[velvetfoot]

I have a couple of the hardwired Firex 12000's with the ion smoke detector; one in basement and one on first floor.
I also have a battery powered CO detector in bedroom (not sure of maker).
Perhaps I will buy one of the new models for a better mix of smoke detectors.
The voice will also be good - I'll be darned if I remember which sound is which.