Pleasant Hearth 2417 Theory Of Operation Question

[B. Pinson]

I have a PH2417-B That I currently installed. I'm experiencing some of the same issues that so many others have reported regarding having to keep the door cracked all the time to allow enough oxygen in for sufficient burn. I've read dozens of responses on numerous forums covering the obvious - use dry cured wood, minimum chimney height and so on. With that being said, my question is regarding the air intake. The intake control regulates the flow of air entering into the TOP front of the stove. There is absolutley ZERO ports near the bottom of the stove for fresh air to enter. This just doesn't make sense to me. Even the instructional video from the manufacturer speaks of an intake port in the bottm center of the stove and should be cleared of ashes to form a trench for the air flow to pass. So I'm wondering if this is a design flaw or do all epa stoves introduce cold fresh air in from the very top?

 

[begreen]

There is most likely a boost air port that is unregulated. I am not sure where the entry point would be for this on the PH. If you look at the front of the firebox after an ash cleaning you should be able to see the boost air hole just in side the bottom front of the firebox.

 

[B. Pinson]

There is most likely a boost air port that is unregulated. I am not sure where the entry point would be for this on the PH. If you look at the front of the firebox after an ash cleaning you should be able to see the boost air hole just in side the bottom front of the firebox.

That's where I thought it would have been. I've looked over it thourougly and it's just not there. I've even put a scope in all the areas that aren't viewable by eye. That's why I was wondering if it was something that just got overlooked by QC.

 

[Woodcutter Tom]

If you are discussing the Pleasant Hearth WS2417, I can provide some insight as I had one for two years. I just replaced it within the last 10 days.

The WS2417 has two intakes for air. One for primary air; another for air flow to the secondary tubes.

The primary air enters from beneath the stove. If you look under the stove you will see a small box. The control for this intake is a push - pull rod on the front of the stove under the door and ash tray. Push to reduce air; pull to increase air. There is an opening under the small box that is shaped like a triangle. The control rod moves a flat plate across the triangle opening. The narrow part of the triangle is toward the rear of the stove. The air enters the opening and flows toward the front of the stove. Across the front of the stove is a square tube that runs left and right. The air flows into this tube. On each side of the door are square tubes that run up and down. The air flows from the horizontal tube into the vertical tubes. The top of the vertical tubes open into a space that directs the air over the top of the glass in the door. A deflector directs the air down over the glass as an air wash. There are no openings in the tubes that allow air to enter or leave the tubes. They are sealed. Air comes in the bottom triangle opening and leaves at the top right and left corners of the glass. When the control rod is fully pushed in, there is still an open space of the triangle. The control rod never fully shuts down the air flow.

The air for the secondary tubes enters at the rear of the stove. The opening is also on the bottom of the stove. There is an opening of approx 3/4 inch by 1 1/4 inch on the bottom back edge of the stove. It is centered along the back edge. Air enters here and goes straight up in a square tube to the top of the stove. You can see this tube between the firebricks at the rear of the stove. A tube runs left and right across the top of the back of the stove. On each side are square tubes that run from back to front. The round secondary air tubes are connected to these tubes. Air flows up the back tube, then left and right to the sides of the stove, then toward the front where it flows into the three secondary burn tubes.

There are no other openings for air for this stove. I also have taken a video camera and probed the insides of the tubes looking for blockage.

I tried all sorts of things to get better performance from this stove. After a few fires this year, I knew it would be the same as last year. Therefore I decided to change stoves. I got a DROLET Escape 1500. It is made by a manufacturer who has been making stoves for decades; not a company that makes grill and outdoor firepits and decided to branch out into wood burning stove. The difference between the two stoves is remarkable. The primary air control actually effects the fire with very little movement. I am still getting used to this stove, but I am pleased I made the switch.

 

[B. Pinson]

If you are discussing the Pleasant Hearth WS2417, I can provide some insight as I had one for two years. I just replaced it within the last 10 days.

The WS2417 has two intakes for air. One for primary air; another for air flow to the secondary tubes.

The primary air enters from beneath the stove. If you look under the stove you will see a small box. The control for this intake is a push - pull rod on the front of the stove under the door and ash tray. Push to reduce air; pull to increase air. There is an opening under the small box that is shaped like a triangle. The control rod moves a flat plate across the triangle opening. The narrow part of the triangle is toward the rear of the stove. The air enters the opening and flows toward the front of the stove. Across the front of the stove is a square tube that runs left and right. The air flows into this tube. On each side of the door are square tubes that run up and down. The air flows from the horizontal tube into the vertical tubes. The top of the vertical tubes open into a space that directs the air over the top of the glass in the door. A deflector directs the air down over the glass as an air wash. There are no openings in the tubes that allow air to enter or leave the tubes. They are sealed. Air comes in the bottom triangle opening and leaves at the top right and left corners of the glass. When the control rod is fully pushed in, there is still an open space of the triangle. The control rod never fully shuts down the air flow.

The air for the secondary tubes enters at the rear of the stove. The opening is also on the bottom of the stove. There is an opening of approx 3/4 inch by 1 1/4 inch on the bottom back edge of the stove. It is centered along the back edge. Air enters here and goes straight up in a square tube to the top of the stove. You can see this tube between the firebricks at the rear of the stove. A tube runs left and right across the top of the back of the stove. On each side are square tubes that run from back to front. The round secondary air tubes are connected to these tubes. Air flows up the back tube, then left and right to the sides of the stove, then toward the front where it flows into the three secondary burn tubes.

There are no other openings for air for this stove. I also have taken a video camera and probed the insides of the tubes looking for blockage.

I tried all sorts of things to get better performance from this stove. After a few fires this year, I knew it would be the same as last year. Therefore I decided to change stoves. I got a DROLET Escape 1500. It is made by a manufacturer who has been making stoves for decades; not a company that makes grill and outdoor firepits and decided to branch out into wood burning stove. The difference between the two stoves is remarkable. The primary air control actually effects the fire with very little movement. I am still getting used to this stove, but I am pleased I made the switch.

Thanks for that write up. That's exactly what I've observed. I believe this "airwash" theory they have is nothing more than a theory. As stated in my original post; It makes no sense to not have some air entering at the bottom directly below the flame. That's why I asked about other epa stoves air controls. What about yours? Does your new one have air entering into the bottom or is it directed to the top as well?

 

[begreen]

The air wash is not a theory. Cooler room air will descend in the firebox along the surface of the stove glass before being pulled into the fire base. It is common to most epa stoves and how they keep the glass clean.

 

[Woodcutter Tom]

What about yours? Does your new one have air entering into the bottom or is it directed to the top as well?

There is no air entering the bottom. It is directed to the top. By design the air is directed to enter the firebox and flow down over the front glass.

 

[B. Pinson]

The air wash is not a theory. Cooler room air will descend in the firebox along the surface of the stove glass before being pulled into the fire base. It is common to most epa stoves and how they keep the glass clean.

Let me rephrase that. I think the Pleasant Hearth airwash is just a theory. The cool air that is trying to be pulled up from the lower intake is ported out in the upper corners of the stove; not across the top above the glass. I don't believe there is any way the top corner ports would ever disperse the air equally across the glass. The first several loads of wood were store bought kiln dried overpriced bundles that were supposedly the best of the best stove wood. The glass door is now black as coal. It's completely covered in soot.

My take on a wood burning stove is the same as a gasoline engine. Without the proper air to fuel ratio you won't get proper burn. Not enough air you'll get a rich condition. Too much will be lean. This stove design is starving for air. There simply is not enough air being allowed into the firebox. One would think that an epa type stove would tend to have a much larger air intake to allow for a leaner, hotter burn than a much smaller intake that "potentially" can cause lower burn temperatures and excessive smoke.

 

[begreen]

Store-bought wood does not mean it is fully seasoned. Can you describe the flue system that the stove is connected to, from stovetop to chimney cap including any turns? How tall is it overall?

 

[B. Pinson]

Store-bought wood does not mean it is fully seasoned. Can you describe the flue system that the stove is connected to, from stovetop to chimney cap including any turns? How tall is it overall?

I have 7' of DuraVent DVL followed by 8' of DuraTech chimney pipe. (6")

 

[begreen]

That should meet the minimum. All straight up, through the roof, no elbows? What are the outdoor temps like?

 

[Woodcutter Tom]

I always felt that my stove was starved for air also. Begreen, you helped me with this in the past by recommending more chimney length. --testing with stove pipe before buying chimney pipe. I ended up with 17 feet of flue length. I started with 12 feet which was defined as the minimum in the user manual. Still I felt it needed more air. I almost cut into the triangle opening under the stove in an attempt to get more air. Das Jugghead has just the opposite concern. He has too much draft and has been trying to slow it down. But he has 28 feet of flue length.
One thing I noticed about my newer stove is that the air wash deflector is a consistant distance from the glass all the way across the top of the stove. It is also closer to the glass than the WS2417. The WS2417's deflector was bowed with the middle much further away from the glass than the edges. Perhaps that effects the stove operation.

 

[B. Pinson]

That should meet the minimum. All straight up, through the roof, no elbows? What are the outdoor temps like?

Yes, straight up; no elbows. The outside temp was low 30s to high 20s. Inside was about 70.

 

[begreen]

That meets the minimum, though some installations can still be draft challenged due to stove or chimney location or local terrain. Just for yucks, have you tried opening a nearby window an inch while starting and running the stove? Do you have some 2x4 or 2x6 scrap cutoffs you could burn in a test fire?

 

[B. Pinson]

I always felt that my stove was starved for air also. Begreen, you helped me with this in the past by recommending more chimney length. --testing with stove pipe before buying chimney pipe. I ended up with 17 feet of flue length. I started with 12 feet which was defined as the minimum in the user manual. Still I felt it needed more air. I almost cut into the triangle opening under the stove in an attempt to get more air. Das Jugghead has just the opposite concern. He has too much draft and has been trying to slow it down. But he has 28 feet of flue length.
One thing I noticed about my newer stove is that the air wash deflector is a consistant distance from the glass all the way across the top of the stove. It is also closer to the glass than the WS2417. The WS2417's deflector was bowed with the middle much further away from the glass than the edges. Perhaps that effects the stove operation.

28 feet. Wow, that would do it no doubt. The deflector you refered to might difinetly be an issue. I toyed with the idea of attaching an exhaust fan to the top of a section of stove pipe and running it while I introduced some HVAC test smoke into the air intake of the firebox to see if I could get an idea of the airflow. I'm sure it would differ significantly since there would be no heat in the firebox during the test.

 

[begreen]

How accessible are the chimney and roof? If good, I would get a 3 or 4' length of cheap warm air duct pipe, remove the chimney cap, and stick the pipe into the chimney (crimp down). Do this on a calm day. Then start a fire using known dry wood like 2x4 with the window cracked open a little. If there is a notable difference, then close the window and watch for change. If it still burns well, then the solution is to add a length of chimney pipe with a brace at 5' above where it exits the roof.

 

[Das Jugghead]

28 feet. Wow, that would do it no doubt. The deflector you refered to might difinetly be an issue. I toyed with the idea of attaching an exhaust fan to the top of a section of stove pipe and running it while I introduced some HVAC test smoke into the air intake of the firebox to see if I could get an idea of the airflow. I'm sure it would differ significantly since there would be no heat in the firebox during the test.

Hey B. Pinson we have the same stove and Woodcutter Tom and I have messaged back and forth a couple of thousand times over the past season in an attempt to help him get some meaningful use out of his stove. A couple of quick questions for you.

• How is your flue attached and sealed to the stove collar?
• Have you checked your baffle board to make sure it is not damaged (cracked or has holes in it)?
• Are you using a moisture meter to measure the MC of your wood?

I found that sealing my flue/collar connection with rock wool and a steel band made a huge difference in stove temperatures. I could actually hear air being sucked in through that connection prior to sealing it up. If the flue is pulling air from outside the stove that means that it is compromising the efficient airflow through your firebox.



If the baffle board is compromised in any way this will affect how much heat the stove can create and, in turn, how much draft the flue can generate, etc.... I also sealed the edges of my baffle board with rock wool as it was not making a seal on the left and right edges of the board.

As mentioned by Woodcutter Tom I have quite the opposite problem. I have quite a bit of draft and have taken steps to slow it down. Currently, with properly sized and well seasoned wood, I can run around 10 hours on a load of wood and still have a small "log" of coals along the back wall which once raked forward is more than enough to start another fire. I expect when legitimately cold temperatures arrive and settle in for the winter my burn times will go down to the 6-8 hour range.

Not to disparage firewood sellers but I have never known one to sell wood that is actually (truly) seasoned. It is just logistically impossible for most sellers given the amount of room required to store and dry large amounts of wood in a commercial scenario. I find, and most seasoned members here (see what I did there?) would attest that many of the struggles experienced by first time EPA stove users can be traced back to problematic wood.

As any of the fine members here would say - if there is anything we can do to help you sort things out that's what we are here for.

Oh - and for the record, Pleasant Hearth stoves really are junk but you might be able to make it work given enough trouble shooting. Don't bother contacting them as their "customer service" is infuriatingly worthless. You are far better off leaning on the knowledge base of the forum members here.

 

[B. Pinson]

That meets the minimum, though some installations can still be draft challenged due to stove or chimney location or local terrain. Just for yucks, have you tried opening a nearby window an inch while starting and running the stove? Do you have some 2x4 or 2x6 scrap cutoffs you could burn in a test fire?

I haven't tried the windows but it won't be a problem. I have a large sliding one in close proximity. Are you referring to just regular pine 2x4s? If so, I have plenty of those. Thanks, I'll try that.

 

[B. Pinson]

How accessible are the chimney and roof? If good, I would get a 3 or 4' length of cheap warm air duct pipe, remove the chimney cap, and stick the pipe into the chimney (crimp down). Do this on a calm day. Then start a fire using known dry wood like 2x4 with the window cracked open a little. If there is a notable difference, then close the window and watch for change. If it still burns well, then the solution is to add a length of chimney pipe with a brace at 5' above where it exits the roof.

The roof and chimney are very accessible. Adding a section won't be a problem at all.

 

[B. Pinson]

Hey B. Pinson we have the same stove and Woodcutter Tom and I have messaged back and forth a couple of thousand times over the past season in an attempt to help him get some meaningful use out of his stove. A couple of quick questions for you.

• How is your flue attached and sealed to the stove collar?
• Have you checked your baffle board to make sure it is not damaged (cracked or has holes in it)?
• Are you using a moisture meter to measure the MC of your wood?

I found that sealing my flue/collar connection with rock wool and a steel band made a huge difference in stove temperatures. I could actually hear air being sucked in through that connection prior to sealing it up. If the flue is pulling air from outside the stove that means that it is compromising the efficient airflow through your firebox.

View attachment 268300

If the baffle board is compromised in any way this will affect how much heat the stove can create and, in turn, how much draft the flue can generate, etc.... I also sealed the edges of my baffle board with rock wool as it was not making a seal on the left and right edges of the board.

As mentioned by Woodcutter Tom I have quite the opposite problem. I have quite a bit of draft and have taken steps to slow it down. Currently, with properly sized and well seasoned wood, I can run around 10 hours on a load of wood and still have a small "log" of coals along the back wall which once raked forward is more than enough to start another fire. I expect when legitimately cold temperatures arrive and settle in for the winter my burn times will go down to the 6-8 hour range.

Not to disparage firewood sellers but I have never known one to sell wood that is actually (truly) seasoned. It is just logistically impossible for most sellers given the amount of room required to store and dry large amounts of wood in a commercial scenario. I find, and most seasoned members here (see what I did there?) would attest that many of the struggles experienced by first time EPA stove users can be traced back to problematic wood.

As any of the fine members here would say - if there is anything we can do to help you sort things out that's what we are here for.

Oh - and for the record, Pleasant Hearth stoves really are junk but you might be able to make it work given enough trouble shooting. Don't bother contacting them as their "customer service" is infuriatingly worthless. You are far better off leaning on the knowledge base of the forum members here.

Thanks for the write up. To answer some of your questions -

I'm using a DuraVent DVL adapter. I've attached an image. The baffle board appears to be fine. I have no moisture meter but I can purchase one.

I appreciate the assistance. I kinda figured based on reviews that this stove was going to be "less than ideal" but it was all our budget allowed so hopefully I can get this one to perform adequately.

 

[Das Jugghead]

Thanks for the write up. To answer some of your questions -

I'm using a DuraVent DVL adapter. I've attached an image. The baffle board appears to be fine. I have no moisture meter but I can purchase one.

I appreciate the assistance. I kinda figured based on reviews that this stove was going to be "less than ideal" but it was all our budget allowed so hopefully I can get this one to perform adequately.

Is it possible for you to post up a picture of the flue/collar connection? I am curious to see how well that connects and seals to the stove collar.

Yes absolutely get a moisture meter - that is critical to getting a solid consensus on the MC of your wood. I am using a relatively cheap one from Lowes here: https://www.lowes.com/pd/General-Tools-Instruments-Digital-Test-Meter/3136919

I totally understand the whole budget issue - same boat to a degree here as well. These cheap stoves can do the job if everything is operating perfectly:

wood type, buck length, split size and MC
flue length (I personally think nothing less than 20)
flue type (it has to be insulated)

I read one of your earlier posts in which you described the stove glass as being completely black - this is classic of burning wet wood. For reference most of the wood I burn is 15% MC or lower. The only time I have ever had blackened or sooty glass is when I burned wet wood. Even now if I choke down the stove too far the stove simply goes out and the glass never blackens.

I would start by measuring the MC of your wood as that is the easiest to diagnose. Measure by splitting a piece of wood that has been indoors for 24 hours. Push the probes deep into the wood to get an accurate reading and post up your results. Let's get that settled and then tackle the other issues.