please educate me on a stainless liner

[spoon059]

How do I go about sizing a stainless steel liner for my stove? I am planning on installing a liner in my Fisher wood stove, which I believe has a 8" flue collar. I knew they make reducers so I could put a 6" liner on this stove. Are there any benefits to putting a smaller liner in, other than fitting through an existing chimney? What are the differences between the different grades of liner, what is the better quality, what is most cost effective? My current clay chimney has a rectangular damper, how do I remove this without damaging anything else?

I ask this because I got a $2000 qoute to have a liner installed, versus seeing stainless kits in the $600 price range. My chimney is only about 15 feet tall, and I have good access to the roof and have capable friends to help me out. It seems like a pretty straight forward installation, especially if I buy a 1 piece flexible liner, and can save $1400!

Any DIY'ers out there provide some tips or warnings?

 

[DAKSY]

How do I go about sizing a stainless steel liner for my stove? I am planning on installing a liner in my Fisher wood stove, which I believe has a 8" flue collar. I knew they make reducers so I could put a 6" liner on this stove. Are there any benefits to putting a smaller liner in, other than fitting through an existing chimney? What are the differences between the different grades of liner, what is the better quality, what is most cost effective? My current clay chimney has a rectangular damper, how do I remove this without damaging anything else?

I ask this because I got a $2000 qoute to have a liner installed, versus seeing stainless kits in the $600 price range. My chimney is only about 15 feet tall, and I have good access to the roof and have capable friends to help me out. It seems like a pretty straight forward installation, especially if I buy a 1 piece flexible liner, and can save $1400!

Any DIY'ers out there provide some tips or warnings?

Hey, Spoon,
Basically, for good drafting, you want to keep the vent the same dimension from the top of the stove to the top of the chimney.
8" liners are more expensive, but check your flue tile to see what size will fit...
Sounds like you're install is into an existing fire place.
Is you stove a top or rear exit?
The kits for each may be different depending on the height of the lintel.
Most liners the SS liners - that I've seen - are constructed from .006" thick material.
It's very durable & generally has a lifetime warranty.
You'll probably need to remove the damper.
You made need to remove the damper frame & some firebrick, too,...
Depends on whether or not your liner will fit thru the existing opening...
Sometimes "ovalizing" the liner can help...
For the most part it's two-man task & you need to wear heavy leather gloves to protect yourhands- that stuff is razor sharp.
Get yourself some plumber's strap & zip screws, & a small length of sheet metal & enuff rope to make it to the fireplace hearth & THEN SOME...
Make a 2-3" wide strip from the sheet metal & form it around the O.D. of the liner.
Attach it to the liner with zip screws.
Attach a length of plumber's strap to the sheet metal band.
Attach the rope to the strap.
Drop the rope down the chimney.
Have someone pull the liner down while another guides it from above.
If you can get it THAT far, you should be good to go with the rest of your install.
Just add your block off plate/insulation & connect er up!
If you have any further questions, fire (pun!) back!
I'd add the rest of the process, but I'm heading to the Albany Airport to stand in a PGR FLAG LINE to welcome some of our GI's home from the Middle East.
Later...

 

[Ivy Frank]

I try to post to this earlier - not sure what happened to my post . . .

You cannot reduce an 8" output to 6". That's a reduction of cross-sectional area of 16 to 9, or almost half. If your stove has an 8" output, then that's the cross-sectional area you need for the stove.

Ovallizing is done, but you won't find a liner manufacturer that will say it should be done - it decreases area, reduces draft, weakens the liner, and otherwise should be avoided - I recommend removing whatever is in the way that would cause you to consider potentially damaging the liner.

I strongly recommend you get a liner wrap for insulation - better draft, safer, more efficient stove.

Most chimney flues won't take an 8" round with insulation, so that limits your options - oval liner, if it fits, or get a new stove, which might be your best answer.

good luck.

 

[Summertime]

Check out the youtube link that I pasted below, I learned a lot from it and other videos on youtube and had little trouble doing a self install.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRauuzjI-H4

 

[Channing]

I love my simson 8" single wall. Installed myself

 

[DAKSY]

[quote author="Ivy, Frank" date="1231094421"]I try to post to this earlier - not sure what happened to my post . . .

You cannot reduce an 8" output to 6".

Yes you can.

That's a reduction of cross-sectional area of 16 to 9, or almost half. If your stove has an 8" output, then that's the cross-sectional area you need for the stove.

Your math is a little off...
A = pi(r*r)
8" Diameter has an area of about 50 sq in (3.14159 X 16)
6" diameter has an area of about 28 sq in (3.14159 X 9)
Your reasoning is valid, but you CAN reduce the connector & chimney & still get a working unit. It may have some performance issues, but it will work.

Ovallizing is done, but you won't find a liner manufacturer that will say it should be done

Why do liner manufacturers offer liner ovalizing equipment?

it decreases area

Show me the math to back that up & I'll believe you...I tried to find the formula, but couldn't find one that would give me exactly what I wanted. It seems to me that the circumference is gonna be the same, so the area should also...

reduces draft

Possibly, but I believe if the chimney is extended, there should be an equalization point. Then again, Physics did not add a lot of points to my college GPA...
We installed a MAnsfield in a 35' chimney where we could only get a 5" liner down (what a workout!), & the owner has NO performance issues...MAybe we got lucky, I don't know for sure...

weakens the liner

I don't agree with the "weakens the liner" statement unless you smash it flat & then try to make it round again. That may cause some metal fatigue..
Stainless Steel - even at .006" thick - is STILL pretty tough stuff...

otherwise should be avoided

Sometimes there is no other way to get a liner down.

- I recommend removing whatever is in the way that would cause you to consider potentially damaging the liner.

Agreed...

I strongly recommend you get a liner wrap for insulation - better draft, safer, more efficient stove.

Agreed...

Most chimney flues won't take an 8" round with insulation, so that limits your options - oval liner, if it fits,

Whoa! Didn't you just tell him that an oval wouldn't work?

or get a new stove, which might be your best answer.

Newer stoves are safer & cleaner, but some of them are pretty expensive, which may be prohibitive...

 

[Todd]

Hey DAKSY,
What do the local code inspectors or home owners insurance say about reducing? I realize it may work and be a better alternative verses a properly sized bad chimney but is it code?

 

[DAKSY]

Hey DAKSY,
What do the local code inspectors or home owners insurance say about reducing? I realize it may work and be a better alternative verses a properly sized bad chimney but is it code?

Hey, Todd...
Most of our local building inspectors rely on our expertise when it comes to hearth product installation,
and none of our customers ever had a problem getting a permit from them.
As long as we give them the installation details when the permit is applied for & there is no CLEAR violation of the manufacturer's
recommendations, there is no issue.
As far as homeowners' insurance goes, the same applies. We show them the installation guidelines & we DO NOT violate them. Our company WILL not install a noncompliant product, or one that cannot meet specified clearances

 

[Todd]

Hey DAKSY,
What do the local code inspectors or home owners insurance say about reducing? I realize it may work and be a better alternative verses a properly sized bad chimney but is it code?

Hey, Todd...
Most of our local building inspectors rely on our expertise when it comes to hearth product installation,
and none of our customers ever had a problem getting a permit from them.
As long as we give them the installation details when the permit is applied for & there is no CLEAR violation of the manufacturer's
recommendations, there is no issue.
As far as homeowners' insurance goes, the same applies. We show them the installation guidelines & we DO NOT violate them. Our company WILL not install a noncompliant product, or one that cannot meet specified clearances

Well watch your ash, because a local inspector could have failed that Mansfield install since the manual requires at least a 6" inside diameter chimney and that sure seems like a CLEAR violation of manufactures recommendations. Some inspectors are a little more picky than others like a former member here Elkimmeg, he would have raked you through the coals about this.

 

[Ivy Frank]

I try to post to this earlier - not sure what happened to my post . . .

You cannot reduce an 8" output to 6".

Yes you can.

I didn't mean it wasn't physically possible. I've seen all kinds of "chimney sweep" hacks beat the crap out of liners to get 'em in.

DAKSY - easy to prove me wrong on this one. Just provide the link to a stove manufacturer that produces a stove with an 8" output collar that says it's OK to vent it through a 6" pipe/liner.

Unless the manufacturer of the stove specifically states that such a reduction is OK, it should be presummed to be dangerous and improper.

ALWAYS listen to the manufacturer.

That's a reduction of cross-sectional area of 16 to 9, or almost half. If your stove has an 8" output, then that's the cross-sectional area you need for the stove.

Your math is a little off...
A = pi(r*r)
8" Diameter has an area of about 50 sq in (3.14159 X 16)
6" diameter has an area of about 28 sq in (3.14159 X 9)

Um, dude. I'm Frank Ivy!!
You have the numbers right there. You were looking at them. 8" is 16pi and 6" is 9pi.
So the reduction is from 16pi to 9pi, which is a reduction of 16 to 9, which is almost half.

Your reasoning is valid, but you CAN reduce the connector & chimney & still get a working unit. It may have some performance issues, but it will work.

It "may have some performance issues" but it "will work"? !

Why do liner manufacturers offer liner ovalizing equipment?

Let me state it differently - if the manufacturer of the stove says you can ovalize a vent to smaller area, and the manufacturer of the liner says you can, then OK. I've never seen it.

Frank Ivy - "it decreases area"

Show me the math to back that up & I'll believe you...I tried to find the formula, but couldn't find one that would give me exactly what I wanted. It seems to me that the circumference is gonna be the same, so the area should also...

It's fundamental that the greatest area within a bound line of a fixed length is maximized with a circle.
For example, a circle with a C of 50 inches will have an area greater than any other shape with a perimeter of 50 inches. The formulas are here . . . http://www.efunda.com/math/areas/EllipseGen.cfm. Could be done, but a bit more time than I'd like to spend. Crimping a liner most definitely reduces area, and, beyond that, increases drag.

reduces draft

Possibly, but I believe if the chimney is extended, there should be an equalization point. Then again, Physics did not add a lot of points to my college GPA...
We installed a MAnsfield in a 35' chimney where we could only get a 5" liner down (what a workout!), & the owner has NO performance issues...MAybe we got lucky, I don't know for sure...

Once again, all I can say is the fact that it can be done, and work, doesn't mean it should be done.

weakens the liner

I don't agree with the "weakens the liner" statement unless you smash it flat & then try to make it round again. That may cause some metal fatigue..
Stainless Steel - even at .006" thick - is STILL pretty tough stuff...

And sharp as a razor! Well, to be clear, it weakens it but not in any way that will likely matter.

otherwise should be avoided

Sometimes there is no other way to get a liner down.

We agree. But w/out manufacturer's consent, it's a lawsuit when there's a fire.

Most chimney flues won't take an 8" round with insulation, so that limits your options - oval liner, if it fits,

Whoa! Didn't you just tell him that an oval wouldn't work?

Depends on stove/liner manufacturer. For example, you can use an oval that is larger, or, if the stove manufacturer is ok, you can use an oval that is the same nominal size.
My issue is with smashing a round liner, not with oval in general. Here's one solution . . . http://www.novaflex.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=33&idproduct=370


http://www.novaflex.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=33&idproduct=370

or get a new stove, which might be your best answer.

Newer stoves are safer & cleaner, but some of them are pretty expensive, which may be prohibitive...

Yeah, everybody is always crying poor. They're 100 pounds overweight because they eat an extra 200 dollars of food a month, they smoke a 5 dollar pack of marlboros every day. They spend 100 bucks on the idiot box a month, they drive an SUV without having any need to drive one. They spend a grand on brain numbing video game consoles and games. They drink 40 bucks of booze a week. The spend gobs of money on ridiculous clothing. They work 35 hours a week and think they're slaves.

But then when I say - hey, you're running a really old, inefficient stove here. For less than 2 grand, you could double your efficiency, using much less wood, get more heat out, and be safer.

They look at me like I'M the crazy one and say, "TWO GRAND? Who's got that kind of money? Um. Can you pass the lighter."

Dunk.

 

[crazy_dan]

Yeah, everybody is always crying poor. They're 100 pounds overweight because they eat an extra 200 dollars of food a month, they smoke a 5 dollar pack of marlboros every day. They spend 100 bucks on the idiot box a month, they drive an SUV without having any need to drive one. They spend a grand on brain numbing video game consoles and games. They drink 40 bucks of booze a week. The spend gobs of money on ridiculous clothing. They work 35 hours a week and think they're slaves.

But then when I say - hey, you're running a really old, inefficient stove here. For less than 2 grand, you could double your efficiency, using much less wood, get more heat out, and be safer.

They look at me like I'M the crazy one and say, "TWO GRAND? Who's got that kind of money? Um. Can you pass the lighter."

Up to here I was with you, then you got pretty "self-righteous"
The safer part well that depends on the operator and how they operate the stove
I have been burning for 25+ years and have never had a chimney fire and I have burned the whole spectrum from barrel stove to my Summit.
If somebody chooses to spend a grand on video games or smokes or booze or anything else what does it matter to you?

 

[oconnor]

OK, liner size is a code issue, yes, no question there.

But for an appliance to work correctly, a given draft over fire is required, usually descibed in most manuals as a 15ft flue of the same outlet size. They aren't actually telling you what draft is required, but are describing a system that will provide that draft. To measure draft over fire, you need the correct equipment - you can look that up if you wish.

When you increase chimney height, you increase draft, as the rising heated air will create more negative pressure inside the firebox, drawing more air into the box, and more importantly, allowing you to close down primary air controls, and allowing secondary air channels (which are usually unrestricted by the air control systems) to inject more air. When you insulate a chimney liner, you increase temps inside the liner (by reducing heat loss), and increase draft

When you add elbows, you reduce draft, as flow velocities will decrease - rule of thumb mentioned often on this site is 5ft/90 degree elbow.

When you reduce flue diameter, you decrease draft. While the cross sectional area is often quoted as a measure of the effect of decreasing the size, keep in mind that lots of things are at work here - the flow velocities will be faster, so while the cross section may decrease by , say, half, that does not neccesarily equate to a half loss in draft over fire. Someone out there may have the exact numbers, but I don't.

All that to say that, code aside, a downsized liner of a height higher than the specified minimum chimney height will provide the same draft over fire as the minimum chimney of the specified size.

It seems that on this issue, given that the math isn't all that easy, nor can all folks understand the math, and many variables come to play, that code errs on the side of simple.

 

[Ivy Frank]

Up to here I was with you, then you got pretty "self-righteous"
The safer part well that depends on the operator and how they operate the stove
I have been burning for 25+ years and have never had a chimney fire and I have burned the whole spectrum from barrel stove to my Summit.
If somebody chooses to spend a grand on video games or smokes or booze or anything else what does it matter to you?

It doesn't matter at all. Well, unless they force me into the same insurance plan with the guy via "universal" health care.

What I'm saying is that most people who claim to not have 2 grand for something that would benefit them greatly - like updating their old, inefficient stove - have 2 grand, they just blow it on ridiculous crap.

So I don't care if they want to do all those things, but they should at least have the decency to say it like it is . . .

Frank Ivy - "you know, you could use 1/2 the wood you're using if you simply bought a new stove."
Joe - "Naah. I'm too lazy and stupid to do that. I spend whatever money touches my hand before it warms up. I can't budget to save enough, and, instead, I'll pay to have twice more wood then I need, further worsening my budget."

Just a little truth is all.

Here it is . .

If you're more than 30 pounds overweight, or you smoke, or you regularly drink alcohol, or you spend more than 50 bucks a months on TV, you're not poor, so don't say you are. You're just not very smart with money.

 

[DAKSY]

Hey, Todd...

Well watch your ash, because a local inspector could have failed that Mansfield install since the manual requires at least a 6" inside diameter chimney and that sure seems like a CLEAR violation of manufactures recommendations.

No, It does not. From the install manual:
"The Mansfield requires a 6" diameter flue for NEW installations."

Some inspectors are a little more picky than others like a former member here Elkimmeg, he would have raked you through the coals about this

Some are, yes, but we've been installing TO CODE (NFPA211) & within the appliance manual guidelines for over 30 years, & when the buiding inspectors around here try to strut their stuff (because they think they know more than we do & they are the "Authority Having Jurisdiction"), they generally slink away with their tails tucked...
I'm not saying that we know everything, because we don't. I'm saying that we follow the proper guidelines laid out by the industry & the manufacturers & we will get interpretations of any "Gray" areas before we will actually install a fuel burning appliance...