Please help us plan the heating of our home

[Joss]

Hello and thanks for a great site!
We are in the midst of planning some changes to the heating of our one story, 2890 sqft home. After reading a bit in the forum, I thought I'd post here and get some advice. There seem to be a lot of knowledgeable people around here!
Attached is the floor plan of the house.
Heres the deal: We have an existing, double sided fireplace (with lots of rocks to hold the heat) that is in need of a new chimney and an upgrade with an insert or hearth mounted stove to be used. We would really like to heat our entire home with wood if possible.
There are two duct system sections in the house, split about in the middle of the living room. We have an heat exchanger and a electric furnace in one part, and a heat exchanger with a fan in the other part. I have tried heating with an Outdoor Wood furnace, but I am not happy with this set up for many reasons (e.g. it uses A LOT of wood, hard to maintain for my wife, unreliable etc.). 35% of the basement is unfinished and the rest is crawlspace (not vented to the outside). The house is built in the 60's with a larger addition built in the 70's. We are in the process of changing windows and doors to make it more energy efficient.
There is an opening in the wall from the dining room to the kitchen + a big doorway so it is pretty much open from the kitchen all the way to the fireplace in the living room. Being that the fireplace is double sided, there should be no problems heating the one side of the house. The other side with all the bedrooms is the culprit.
We were thinking about getting e.g a BIS or Opel fireplace insert and ducting it to distribute the heat to those rooms. Does anybody have any experience with how well this works? The other option (and probably cheaper) is to get a hearth mounted stove, e.g an Equinox. The question is if this would be enough to heat the whole house. Maybe we would just have to have electric space heaters in some rooms. Maybe another stove? - not sure where it would be located though.
Winters are harsh here with temperatures sometimes going down to minus 35 degrees celcius on some days.

Your thoughts and help would be greatly appreciated!
Josh

 

[wellbuilt home]

I think a EQ could heat the whole house but at -35 you mite be better off with 2 stoves .one on each sideof the house . my house is 60'x 42' L shaped and the stove is in the center with the pipe running up about 30 feet . I have been using a VC dutch west 55000 btus . Its been a great stove but when it gets down to 0 out side you could start to feel the cold radiating off the glass . The farther you get from the stove the cooler it gets .

 

[begreen]

The BIS and RSF Opels are built-in fireplaces, they are not inserts. What's the size of the current fireplace opening(s)? If you can post a picture that would help visualize the setup better.

Have you posted in the boiler room here? I would think a properly designed and installed, wood fired, gasifier boiler system might work well. That is a different animal from the standard OWB. It's much more efficient and clean burning.

 

[Joss]

Thanks for your input guys!
The opening is about 40" high, 45" wide and 40" through.
Attached is a photo of it.
Darn it, yes those fireplaces wouldn't work then of course. What about the Quadra-Fire 5100i? Didn't see anything about any options to duct the heat though.
Is it possible to duct heat form a stove?
I guess a gasifier boiler would do the trick. Just thought it would be nice to use this massive fireplace since it is already in the house. It would hopefully make it easier to maintain for the rest of the family too.

Josh

 

[begreen]

Hmm, Is the fireplace open clear through on both sides or are there two separate flues and fireplaces on the LR and FR sides? If it's clear through, I'm thinking a freestanding Hearthstone Equinox, exposed on both sides might not only look sharp, but would perform pretty well in there too. You'd need to extend a hearth, but that is quite doable.

 

[begreen]

If this is one sided, then a big insert like the 5100, Jotul C550, Avalon Olympic or the PE Summit should work. Though all the doors and hallway kind of restrict good circulation for the FR and hall of bedrooms. (Only one full bath for 5 brs?) I might consider a second stove for that area if you find it ends up chilly.

 

[Joss]

Thanks for the advice BeGreen!

Our fireplace is open right through, attached is a photo of the other side.
I guess the Equinox probably looks like the best solution. If putting in a second stove, where would I put it? With so many rooms and doors, wouldn't it be hard to get any kind of distribution of heat worth anything? I think the far two bedroom will mostly be storage anyway, (at least until we get more kids! ) so it is not a big deal. Do you think the Equinox would distribute enough heat for the master bedroom being that it is not too far away and the kitchen being that it is open right through to the living room? I know it is hard for anybody that hasn't been in our home to answer this but I just thought I'd ask anyway....
I've heard about basement stoves where the heat has been directed through openings in the ductwork to distribute the heat. Is this something that is not recommended to do?

Josh

 

[BrotherBart]

With that big ass fireplace open on both sides a monster stove in it with blower, not an insert, is the only way to go. I will yield to the soapstone crowd but a big steel stove like a Pacific Energy Summit or my personal favorite the Englander 30-NC would be the best bet.

You ain't gonna heat a 2,900 sq. ft. one level house with one stove. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Joss]

Thanks for your reply BrotherBart, much appreciated. What would your advice be for supplementing the hearth mounted stove in heating the home?

Josh

 

[BrotherBart]

Painful as it is I am going to have to admit I was wrong! I didn't look at that floor plan. Imagine a slapping sound up beside my head.

The way that house is laid out the rooms that won't be well heated ain't where you spend your time anyway. For long lasting heat the Hearthstone Equinox would be a winner. Heck I think the Mansfield might get it done. As would the the big boy steel stoves with the thermal mass of that fireplace.

 

[snydley]

Hello and thanks for a great site!
We are in the midst of planning some changes to the heating of our one story, 2890 sqft home.
Heres the deal: We have an existing, double sided fireplace (with lots of rocks to hold the heat) that is in need of a new chimney and an upgrade with an insert or hearth mounted stove to be used. We would really like to heat our entire home with wood if possible.
Your thoughts and help would be greatly appreciated!
Josh

One option, if you have room in your basement and existing duct work would be a wood/coal furnace, connected to your existing furnace, or by itself connected to the duct work you already have . Though not as aesthetically pleasing as a wood stove, when connected to your duct work it would circulate heat throughout your whole house. They have large blowers that are thermostatically controlled. You could then keep the fireplaces as they are now, and burn them for auxiliary heating and ambiance when you felt like it. I have a U.S. Stove wood/coal stove in my 28'x40' insulated pole barn and ran duct work to the 1st and 2nd floors and it keeps that barn nice and warm in the winter.
Mine runs wood or coal, has a massive firebox and burns for hours on end. Here's a link to their furnace web page. (broken link removed to http://www.usstove.com/products.php?cat=4)
Good luck,
Snyde

 

[Joss]

Ha, ha! Well, I am real glad to hear that you think it could get the job done BrotherBart!
Couple more questions, do you think we would be cooking in the living room with such a monster, or is your guys' experience that the heat will transfer around the house pretty good - either by itself or by the aid of fans? Would running the duct fans to circulate the air be any use at all?
Thanks for the tip about the wood furnace snydley. I took a look at it and especially the new more efficient model looks pretty good and interesting. It definitely is an option. The thing is that I would really like to utilize that big fireplace somehow. The way it is now, I cannot even use it. The previous owner almost burnt the house down with it - we looked in the attic and it was charred around the chimney pipe. There will have to run up a new chimney, and if I do that I would like to have something efficient sitting in the existing fireplace. IF a hearth mounted stove would do the job in keeping the house warm, that would be my first choice.

Thanks again guys, you have been a great help!
Josh

 

[begreen]

Soapstone stoves are a more gradual heater, they don't radiate as intensely as some stoves. It should be fine. This is a new stove so we only have limited user reports so far. But given the track record of the other Hearthstones it looks like a winner and a very nice looking stove, from all sides. The stove is massive, it will take a bit to get it up to temperature, but it's sized right for your place and with the unusual double-sides to the fireplace, it should provide heat in both directions.

I'm not a big fan of using the central heating system fan. Circulation can often be achieved with smaller fans like a table fan on the floor, pointed towards the stove. That solution uses less power and has no duct losses associated with it. The bathroom and 5th BR may be a bit cool due to the distance from the stove, but maybe put a heated towel rack on a thermostat in that room to compensate?

 

[snydley]

Thanks for the tip about the wood furnace snydley. I took a look at it and especially the new more efficient model looks pretty good and interesting. It definitely is an option. The thing is that I would really like to utilize that big fireplace somehow. The way it is now, I cannot even use it. The previous owner almost burnt the house down with it - we looked in the attic and it was charred around the chimney pipe. There will have to run up a new chimney, and if I do that I would like to have something efficient sitting in the existing fireplace. IF a hearth mounted stove would do the job in keeping the house warm, that would be my first choice.

Thanks again guys, you have been a great help!
Josh

Here's something I found when I did a search on Google for indoor wood furnaces, the Charmaster II. It's a combo wood fireplace/furnace. Looks quite interesting. Here's the link.

(broken link removed to http://www.charmaster.com/char2.html)

It's a fireplace/furnace/hot water heater. Does everything but cook breakfast and drive you to work. :cheese:

 

[Joss]

:-D That is pretty cool snydley, but also pretty expensive...
And so is the Equinox - just talked to a dealer around here and it comes to 5100 CAD with taxes. Then I have to pay for the chimney installation too (and the chiropractor). The guys says he want to put it in front of the opening on one side and run the chimney into the fireplace and up. Is this the way to go or were you guys actually suggesting to put it inside the opening with a blower?

Josh

 

[Joss]

I also want to add a question about type of firewood after reading some list of how much BTUs you can get from different wood. We live an area where the majority of the firewood available is poplar. I guess on the manufacturers website the probably use hardwood to get the best burn times and sqft that a stove would heat. Is it safe to say that by burning poplar the burn time would almost be cut in half from what is listed in the specifications? Is anybody able to from the information about the house, the stove(Equinox) and the firewood to give me a rough estimate of what I could expect to burn in one of our cold Manitoba winters?
Any thoughts about mounting inside the fireplace or in front?

Thanks!
Josh

 

[begreen]

I'll take a stab at this, but other thoughts are welcome. The dealer sounds like he is trying to give you the best performance for the main part of the house (LR/DR/Kitchen) with the stove placed in front of the fireplace. I can appreciate that. This is a big place and I think he is trying to maximize comfort in the house core. If this weren't a 2 sided fireplace, I would be inclined to agree. Also, you will lose the side door loading.

Given the setup and the desire to also warm up the rock storage on the side it seems like putting the stove in the fireplace is worth a try. It may not be as efficient for quick warmups, but if the stove is running 24/7 my guess is that it will do a better job of heating the backend of the house by the back of the stove being exposed to the family room. This is an experiment, if the stove placement doesn't work out that well for the whole house heating due to location or low btu fuel, then it could be moved out of the fireplace into the LR with the appropriate hearth extension. But I would try it in the fp first. I might also consider a damper block off plate to keep the heat in the rooms as much as possible.

As far as fans go, I would have a couple standard 12" table fans on hand. They're on clearance sale now at many hdwre stores. Then experiment once the stove is up to temp. I think you will gain from having one in the kitchen/DR opening, pointing toward the stove and running on low. The other one could be used either to blow across the stove or maybe in the FR hallway blowing toward the stove? It's hard to tell, the hallway is not helping air circulation. Is there a door or opening leading from the FR to BRs 3,4&5 I'd be tempted to take the hallway doors off for the winter to open up that area. It's going to take some experimentation to find the most effective, yet least intrusive locations for the fans. The idea is to use the fan located low to push the cold air towards the source of heat.

Poplar will burn quickly. One local wood guy calls it chit wood. But it does impart heat, just not as much as some other wood. It's good for fall and spring burning or for establishing a hot coal bed for hardwood. If you can get some tamarack, birch, ash, maple or other wood to burn in winter, that would help. Otherwise, get at least an extra cord of the poplar. And be sure it is well seasoned wood. Unseasoned wood does not heat well and can be a real creosote maker.

PS: I would take a look at the Blaze King King Classic stove as well. It should do well with poplar and is known for providing good long burns.
(broken link removed to http://www.blazeking.com/Brochures-En/WoodProductPDF/KingWoodStove.pdf)

 

[Joss]

Thank you BeGreen for taking the time to answer - your advice is much appreciated and it makes sense. I will probably try mounting it inside first.
I looked at the Blaze king, and the burn times are amazing! Just wondering about the sqft ratings which are 200 for the king and 3500 for the Equinox. Would the King have enough output for our place I wonder. It sure is tempting with the burn times though. I will inquire around about it.

Josh

 

[RedRanger]

Thank you BeGreen for taking the time to answer - your advice is much appreciated and it makes sense. I will probably try mounting it inside first.
I looked at the Blaze king, and the burn times are amazing! Just wondering about the sqft ratings which are 200 for the king and 3500 for the Equinox. Would the King have enough output for our place I wonder. It sure is tempting with the burn times though. I will inquire around about it.

Josh

I would think that if it is good enough for (north of 60) it should be good enough for you. From my limited experience on this forum and my own experimentiaion if you can burn 24/7 --that is the key.!! IMHO, the sq.ft ratings mean diddly squat, if you can keep on burning, the the heat will keep on churning. ie--the house never really gets a chance to cool down.

why not pm north of 60 and get some real life advice??

 

[Joss]

I've been in touch with north of 60, and he's given me some good real life feedback about the Blaze King. Thank you!
But I just had another dealer here, and he says that according to code, you can't put a stove inside this fireplace because of clearance over top of it. It would have to stand in front of the fireplace and the stove has to have an option for the chimney to come out at the back for us to be able to run it inside the fireplace and up.....I guess this rules out the Blaze King then?? The Equinox can still be an option since it has a rear flue exit or I guess I will be looking at an insert after all. Quadra-Fire 5100i and Kuma Seqouia insert looks pretty good. No idea what the Kuma costs and if any dealers here can get it, but it is a cat and looks like a real good option. Doesn't say anything about burn times, but the EPA certified wood stoves test result list gives it one of the highest BTU outputs (12100-65200, Blaze King 1107: 9100-39800).
Appreciate if anybody have any experience with the Kuma or know about it and also any iput on the clearance issue would be much appreciated.

Josh

 

[begreen]

Sounds like he is trying to apply alcove rules to a fireplace installation. Sorry, but I don't agree. But for peace of mind you could call Hearthstone and get a definitive answer.

 

[Joss]

Just a follow up. Here is what Blaze King answered after asking for all the details:
"Legally you are not allowed to put a liner/chimney into a non approved
fireplace/ firebox. My concern would still always be the trapping of heat
above the stove in this opening . Our standard calls for a minimum of 48"
above the stove top for clearance even in a alcove situation. I therefore
would have to agree with your contractor that this type of install would not
be recommended."
I was very impressed with the help that Blaze King gave me. The other manufacturers didn't really seem to care (Hearthstone , Napoleon Kuma)
BTW Kuma is not approve in Canada.

 

[Jimbob]

I'm confused as to why there is a door in the hallway between the 2nd and 3rd bedroom. Removing that little wall and door would help with air movement, if I'm reading that diagram right.

That is a nice stone fireplace. If it were my house, I'd be tempted to put a fairly large freestanding wood stove (*cough SUMMIT cough*) INSIDE the fireplace opening with the door facing the Living room.
I would leave the existing screen or doors in place on the back side to conceal the back of the stove.

This might look good in there:
(broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/product_summit_classic.php)

Go to Flame & Comfort on Logan in Winnipeg and have a look at one. The back isn't terribly pretty, but if you left the one set of doors in place nobody would see it anyway.

Another way to go would be to install an actual fireplace insert, and close off the back with sheet metal, painted to match the surrounding brickwork.

As far as moving the air around with ducts & fans, that's what we do here.

What part of Manitoba are you in, btw?

 

[begreen]

This is a full masonry fireplace right? If so, why the worry about trapping the heat?

 

[Joss]

Jimbob,
Thanks for your input! The hallway door is actually going to be quite useful this winter, as the rooms down there will be mainly storage and we will keep the door shut. But yes, if we start using them other winters, we might as well take it out. Seems like I have to do an insert to get it approved (hopefully they will even let me do that)....The Summit looks great. How long burn times do you get with softwood? I am in the Parkland area, west of Dauphin. Like your avatar! :-D

BeGreen - I am sorry for not having been more clear. The fireplace seems to have been a very home-made contraption without much thought in regards to code at all. The firebox is lined with some sort of metal. Then they had a hole in that metal box (behind the damper) where the chimney was going up through the attic, and a massive rock chimney sitting on top of the roof with no support under. The chimney was sinking through the roof and we had to take it down and repair the roof. It was charred around the chimney pipes in the attic, so the whole house could have burnt down. The attached photo is taken laying on my back looking up through the damper. You can also see the outlet for the chimney pipe in the upper corner.