pre fab partII pic's included

[nacho]

Wow guys thanks for the info on the last post. I kind of got lost with all the info. I am the amateur to all the terms. My house is located in southern indianda (charlestown) one asked. I am not going to tear all the flue pipe out as that would be too much of a problem. the Heatalator model # is an EC 36 with 8" pipe out the top. I the pics help with the problem. Thanks for the info

 

[Shane]

If you don't want to remove the chimney then just install a zero clearance approved insert with a UL1777 liner. Lopi, Avalon, Quadrafire are a few of many manufacturers that make ZC approved inserts.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Your 8 inch pipe is heatilator brand SL300, you might want to confirm that, im almost shure it is, so if you buy a entire new fireplace, like the quad 7100FP, that firelace is approved for SL300. Otherwise your othter two options are rip every thing out and start over, or do what shane said, and buy a insert. The problem with ZC rated inserts is that there not very big. The quad 2700I is only around 45K buts, and has a small firebox. The 7100FP is 90,000 btu's and has a very large firebox.

One thing about the 7100FP, it will be a real pain to install, all that rock work will have to be cut and redone to a point, the 7100 is MUCH larger then that ec 36 box.

 

[nacho]

How do I find out the type of flue pipe that is installed? I measured it to be 8".

 

[webbie]

How do I find out the type of flue pipe that is installed? I measured it to be 8".

The label or manual might mention the pipe type/model number. Also, you can rip out the sheetrock somewhere to get access and there may be small paper labels on the outside of the pipe.

Keep in mind that to do the job MSG is suggesting will still require ripping out your walls extensively to free the fireplace, so it is a major remodel job....sort of 1/2 way in between an insert and a complete fireplace/chimney rip out.

If you want this job done for a relatively reasonable price, get one of the suggested inserts, install and line the chimney. This total job should run $2200-3000 depending on stove.

The other jobs would more likely run $4,000 - $6,000

 

[DonCT]

Basically you would be pulling a Warren:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/98/

 

[nacho]

Ok I really don't understand how you can put one type of insert into this "pre fab" but not the other one. Do the insert's all burn the same temp? why would one work and not the other. I am looking at the buck 81 pre fab aproved. similar to the osburn. What is the difference in the temp's. I would like to remove the inner box of the insert but everyone is telling me no. Why not remove it and line it with something heat resistant and put the insert in. I do not have any dry wall to remove around my hearth as you can see with the pics to see what type of flue that I really have.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Simply, its aginst the rules. You have to install something that is approved and listed. If you dont, them you risk loosing insurance coverage in the case of a accident. The reason some are ok and some arent, is that some manufactures test and have there appliance certified for ZC installs. If there not tested and listed specificly for ZC boxes ,you cant insall them.

 

[webbie]

Ok I really don't understand how you can put one type of insert into this "pre fab" but not the other one. Do the insert's all burn the same temp? why would one work and not the other. I am looking at the buck 81 pre fab aproved. similar to the osburn. What is the difference in the temp's. I would like to remove the inner box of the insert but everyone is telling me no. Why not remove it and line it with something heat resistant and put the insert in. I do not have any dry wall to remove around my hearth as you can see with the pics to see what type of flue that I really have.

The ones that are approved are usually also the correct size to fit in...that is perhaps the biggest part of the deal.

If the Buck fits - that might be a good choice.

Dozens of units are approved - quite a selection. Once you carefully measure, the possibilities might thin out, until it will become obvious which unit is best for you.

As to why all units are not approved, some have very large radiant (single wall) areas on the top, whereas most approve units have maximum convection chambers.

Also, since a manufacturer has to pay for the extra round of testing, they are only likely to do so with unit that will fit into the majority of pre-fabs.....units less than 20 inches tall.

Some manuals tell you which interior panels you are allowed to remove....usually it is OK to remove the firebrick panels//at least I remember this in the Avalon manuals. Typically, we did not have to remove any....for the smaller inserts.

 

[Shane]

Most language in the manuals anymore require the insert be installed in an operable fireplace, which means the refractory panels have to stay. There probably are some out there that allow their removal though.

 

[nacho]

Yes the flue pipe is the SL300 series. Just checked with the manual on the heatilator. Got to measuring and found the the back wall of the insert is just 21 inches. The flue hole is sitting right against the back of the box. I have seen that just about all inserts have the 6" flue. Would just a reducer work? would it still draw right with the larger flue? Thought of removing the inner box and lining with cement board to get the room that I need. I will still have about 3" all the way around.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

So to revisit your two options,
1) install a Quadrafire ZC epa fireplace that you can hook up to your existing SL300 pipe, because the 7100 uses SL300 to vent
2) buy a insert that is ZC approved, and line they existing SL300.

you cant direct connect, unless the SL300 is rated for 2100* which it isnt. Hope that clears it up.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Here is a copy of page 10 from the quad 2700I insert manual. you can find and read the entire seciton here.
(broken link removed to http://www.quadrafire.com/downloads/installManuals/man_2700i.pdf)


The following modifications of factory built fireplaces are permissible: 1) removal of damper; 2) removal of smoke shelf or baffle; 3 ) removal of ember catches; 4) removal of fire grate; 5) removal of viewing screen/curtain; and, 6) removal of doors.
NOTE: Installation into fireplaces without a permit will void the listing.
The factory built chimney must be listed per UL 127 and meet the type HT requirements of UL 103 . Factory built fireplace chimneys tested to UL 127-1998, may be at the fireplace manufacturer’s option, tested to the same criteria as UL 103 HT requirements. If the chimney is not listed as meeting HT requirements, or if the factory built fireplace was tested prior to 1998, a full height listed chimney liner must be installed from the appliance flue collar to the chimney top. The liner must meet type HT requirements (2100ºF) per UL 1777. The liner must be securely attached to the insert flue collar and the chimney top. To prevent room air passage to the chimney cavity of the fireplace seal the damper area around the chimney liner with high temperature sealant.
The fireplace must not be altered, except that the damper may be removed to accommodate a direct-connect starter pipe or chimney liner, and external trim pieces which do not affect the operation of the fireplace may be removed providing they can be stored on or within the fireplace for reassembly if the insert is removed. The permanent metal warning label provided must be attached to the back of the fireplace, with screws or nails, stating that the fireplace may have been altered to accommodate the insert, and must be returned to original condition for use as a conventional fireplace.
If the hearth extension is lower than the fireplace opening, the portion of the insert extending onto the hearth must be supported.
Manufacturer designed adjustable support kit can be ordered from your dealer. See page 15.
Final approval of this installation type is contingent upon the authority having jurisdiction.
Direct Connect Seal OptionFull Listed Liner OptionMasonry ChimneyFlue Tile MantelDamper AreaSEAL DAMPER AREA
Figure 10.1 - Installation Into A Factory Built Zero-Clearance Fireplace
The Quadra-Fire 2700-I Insert is listed to UL Standards for Safety 127 and approved for installation and use in factory built zero clearance fireplaces conforming to the following specifications

 

[Todd]

Yes the flue pipe is the SL300 series. Just checked with the manual on the heatilator. Got to measuring and found the the back wall of the insert is just 21 inches. The flue hole is sitting right against the back of the box. I have seen that just about all inserts have the 6" flue. Would just a reducer work? would it still draw right with the larger flue? Thought of removing the inner box and lining with cement board to get the room that I need. I will still have about 3" all the way around.

You have a 50' chimney, so you should have a wicked draft even with an 8" flue. Maybe too much draft for a 6" liner. I would try the reducer if the sl300 is ok for a stove.

 

[nacho]

Do you know of any other brands that are aproved for the sl300 series? Also what is that Temp rating?

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

It would have to be a Heatilator product, so i would guess the Heatilator Constitution EPA fireplace would use SL300, and i would think most major brands of inserts would have a ZC approved insert.

 

[nacho]

the 7100 is getting into too much $$ to replace some of the stone work. I want to do the work my self trying to keep it simple. It seems that just slapping a new insert in is going to be more difficult that I thought. The job that warren did is a great example but my prefab opening is not large enough. I guess that it could sit out on the hearth a bit but it seems that I will still have to do something as my opening is only 20 3/4 high.

 

[elkimmeg]

This post is going around and around MSG has taken quite a bit of time to help you but you still are asking many questions.
the related thread I posted the only liner that can be used to obtain the proper UL 1777 listing and breathable cap from Home saver
Msg can only advise the product he knows and sells We all would like to have the vast lknowledge of every possible product on the market but it is impossible, One learns what one sells. In every instance you are advised to consult with your permitting authority. Time to make an office visit and see what they are willing to approve or not approve. They may claim not to issue permits for wood burning inserts in ZC fileplaces. They can claim the original box is not listed for that application and be right. you may argue till you passout but they have the final say. No one here has it we can only advise and point you in the right direction. Before you take the trip in to see your inspector be prepared with the stove that is listed for zc installations and have all possible info to supply like the home saver liner setup down load and print everything out be prepared to present your situatiuion and case If he is understanding you may walk out of there smilling. We can debate this issue to death but your inspector has final say Call first ask general question about ZC installs then ask if you can come and speak with him. If you get into an arguement on the phone with him, the office visit
will not go well

 

[webbie]

Nothing wrong with sitting out on the hearth a bit....Most inserts do that.

And running a 6" liner up the 8" flue will be fine. My installed used to leave the existing cap in place at top and run liner right through a hole in the top of it! Then he'd install a cap on top of the liner. The idea here is that the existing pipe and fireplace cooling would stay the same.

Unfortuanately, the first thread began with MSG telling us how all inspectors in his area approve stoves in front of the pre-fabs and other completely incorrect installations. Based on that, YOU have to choose the unit and the proper way to install and then present it all (with a confident tone) when presenting for your permit. Better to tell than ask....if you are dealing with inspectors such as MSG mentioned. The problem won't be getting approval- the problem if your peace of mind.

 

[BrotherBart]

"The problem won’t be getting approval- the problem if your peace of mind."

And climbing up there and doing the work. That chimney is a monster and that roof was born to kill.

 

[wg_bent]

the 7100 is getting into too much $$ to replace some of the stone work. I want to do the work my self trying to keep it simple. It seems that just slapping a new insert in is going to be more difficult that I thought. The job that warren did is a great example but my prefab opening is not large enough. I guess that it could sit out on the hearth a bit but it seems that I will still have to do something as my opening is only 20 3/4 high.

20 3/4...My Osburn would fit.

 

[elkimmeg]

Here is another twist to this situation, Bringing another epic discussion. Is the ZC NFPA211 certified or its venting system?
No insert can go into a non NFPA compliant fireplace or chimney. Who certifies the ZC to be NFPA compliant for insert application
What if the zc is older than 1998? who can say for certaint the fireplace is in proper operating condition or all potential clearances to combustiables are met without being able to view it due to concealment?

Whether it BE NFPA or the International Mechanical codes code language,, requires a full inspection report before issuing a permit.

When talking to your inspector, it would be prudent to have such a report in hand.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Nothing wrong with sitting out on the hearth a bit....Most inserts do that.

And running a 6" liner up the 8" flue will be fine. My installed used to leave the existing cap in place at top and run liner right through a hole in the top of it! Then he'd install a cap on top of the liner. The idea here is that the existing pipe and fireplace cooling would stay the same.

Unfortuanately, the first thread began with MSG telling us how all inspectors in his area approve stoves in front of the pre-fabs and other completely incorrect installations. Based on that, YOU have to choose the unit and the proper way to install and then present it all (with a confident tone) when presenting for your permit. Better to tell than ask....if you are dealing with inspectors such as MSG mentioned. The problem won't be getting approval- the problem if your peace of mind.

Yes Craig, this forum is a learning place for industry veterans, as well as people that are new. It scares me now knowing the amount of hearthstone homesteads out there that i said would be FINE installed the way we discussed earlier, my only piece of mind is that the inspectors passed it. Today, actually today! this came up in the showroom. A guy wanted to vent a Cumberland Gap (60k BTU Cast stove from Quadrafire) through his ZC firebox, and up the chimney. With all the confidence in the world, I told him NO WAY. I gave him my one and only option, and let him walk. Its true you know, you can teach a semi old dog new tricks.

 

[wg_bent]

MSG/Craig...Just curious. What's wrong with a stove sitting in front of a 0 Clearance fireplace? If a full reline dropping into a peice class A that connects to the stove, how is that different than an insert? Also, if the walls around the 0 clearance are done such that they also are fireproof and clearances are observed, what is the problem?

I'm not saying your not right, I'm just wondering what the problem is? How is that much different than a Hearthstone Homestead Hearthmount?

 

[elkimmeg]

first of all think of clearances in terms of an arc not one straight measurement. With all the conditiond you mentioned metal studs cement board instead of drywall cement board on the other side of the wall and hardi backer siding ion the outside if places on an exterior wall, then it could be placed in front. The chances of that being done 0. Wood construction and sidings are the norm.
It would be no different than placing any stove in front of any combustiable wall. Remember the side and framing is of wood under that sheetrock. As for using the chimney again clearances for the connector pipe come into play be it 18" single wall 6" double wall or
2" class A Since most ZC do not have to adhere to UL 1777 required for wood stove venting, that upgrade like the honesaver I previously mentiponed could be used as a liner. However once class A is used in a run, code will not allow switching back to single wall or double wall connector pipe of single wall liner pipe Class A would have to be continued all the way

I know you directed the question to MSG and Craig if I stepped in I will remove this response It was not directed to me


As you can see it is not a simple matter. A reduced enclosuer could be built behing or in front of the ZC just like any wall to set the free standing stove closer. One would also have to address the hearth extention pad as well