Progress Hybrid house smoke and OAK

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Hey again guys,

We've been using a Progress Hybrid for the second year now after bad experience with Blaze King the year before. It heats well with achievable long burn times, but we are disappointed with the air quality in the house. Two main issues:
- Reloading smoke: if the draft is a little light or there are a lot of hot coals it seems to emit light smoke (probably out the air intake) for 5 or 10 min after reload
-Smoke/woody smell over 375⁰F STT: if it's filled over 1/3 full it's near impossible to keep it below 400. The further above 375, the more of this smokey musty type smell builds up in the 2nd floor. It's not a creosote type vapor, that only occurs if the flame goes out.

I have the window in the stove room cracked and we're running a $500 air filter full blast to reduce the smoke in the 2nd floor. Cracking the window helps a little w/ issue #1 a bit but not #2.

Has anyone been able to improve either issue? What types of improvements have people seen with the OAK? Does that help with issue #1? Maybe it blocks the smoke from being wisped into the house.

I'm happy to answer any questions about install or technique but they are not that relevant. There's a 24ft class A wall exit chimney, run stove at >50% air setting in general with good flames, wood is very dry, draft is strong, we warm the flue well before reload/startup, etc.

I contacted WS and they replaced a warped griddle plate which helped some. Now they are dodging me, unresponsive for many months.

Thanks,
VCS

 

[Highbeam]

Is this the same problem you were having with the blaze king?

 

[fire_man]

I'm curious too - were the issues with the Blaze King similar?

Did you have any smoke issues your first year burning the PH or did they start this year? Can you try to better pin-point the source of the smell from the stove? You mention air intake so are you saying the smoke source is from the rear?

Your >50% air setting caught my attention. Maybe WS changed the air control on the Progress, but If I ran anywere close to a 50% setting it would be over-firing. Your 24' stack should be plenty tall to draft well assuming you don't have more than one 90 degree bend. What about restrictions at the cap?

I've heard WS is crazy busy right now with the phone ringing off the hook so I guess I'm not surprised their response time is higher.

 

[SpaceBus]

What does your chimney situation look like? Sounds like you are having a draft reversal situation, but high draft when it is working properly.
Are you in an inversion zone? If you are getting smoke out of the OAK on a reload, it tells me the OAK is competing with the flue to act as a chimney.
Do you have an external chimney?

 

[MissMac]

these sound like similar issues you were having with your BK from what I recall? maybe there's a pressure issue in your house that is the cause of the problem? it's sounding like perhaps it's not the stoves, now that you've had 2 doing similar things?

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

No, the blaze king would make a lot of sweet creosote type smell and explosions that puffed out smoke when the thermostat damped down the air. Seemed to be a "feature". I exchanged and sold it. If I turn down the PH to barely open it will make the same smell once the flame goes out or is too light. So I keep it open enough to keep a steady flame. Definitely a large improvement.

So the >50% air setting is when there is 5-10lbs of wood, a normal load that keeps it running pretty clean. If there's more than 25lbs of wood in there it needs to be at 25% or less or it will get very hot.

The chimney is 2ft inside, 2x45⁰, wall exit, tee, 21ft with a 15⁰ around the roof. WS thought it should be on the high side. I measured the draft around 0.15in WC at a higher draft setting.

If anything between the two stoves it's that we notice and care that there's smoke in our house. The issue #2 might be there on any stove, but worse on a Woodstock that has breathable rope seals throughout. We bought the air purifiers knowing this is probably inevitable.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

The reloading smoke definitely seems to be from the air intake "rear". There used to be a bit more coming from the back corner of the griddle plate but that improved a lot by replacing the warped plate. #2 seems to be probably from the rear is well but more difficult to pinpoint.

 

[SpaceBus]

What's your backup heat?

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Haha. I have NG baseboard heat. I've long given up running the stove full time. But trying to get some use and money back. We love the heat from the stove.

My main question here was how much improvement to expect if I add an OAK. Did anyone fix the reloading smoke issue? I heard of many people with that problem.

 

[SpaceBus]

Sometimes when I light my cookstove draft will reverse, maybe a strong wind, and the little kindling fire dies back and then it begins drafting out of the airwash inlet. I can overcome this with a cracked patio slider (two fingers open) and pointing my torch towards the flue outlet while the little kindling fire is burning. Usually in a few seconds the draft reestablishes and I can load in my splits and walk away. Perhaps your stove has marginal draft when the fire is down to coal and when you put in splits the draft struggles and temporarily reverses. I suspect you have an exterior class A chimney, as do I with my cookstove. Try just putting in a few pieces of pencil sized kindling when you reload to re-establish draft and only load in regular sized splits once you are certain the draft is operating correctly.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Like I said, not a problem with procedure. There is good draft that sucks all the smoke upwards, but more like some of it swirls back through the secondary air plate or that opening the door sends some smoke past there. There's no "draft reversal". I use kindling and keep the draft strong. Usually I use the heat gun for a minute if it's too cold (5+ min with initial startup).

 

[Highbeam]

Well, you did pick two well regarded stoves. Neither is cheap, both high performance, both with very good reputations and reviews, and both from good companies known for customer service.

Your 0.15” draft is excessive. Well above the limits allowed by most and by BK but I couldn’t find the upper limit in the Woodstock literature.

 

[SpaceBus]

How does smoke exit through the intakes if it is all being sucked up the chimney? If the firebox is under negative pressure then air cannot escape out of the box without a pressure reversal or a "backpuff". I think I recall you having a manometer or mag gauge to measure draft.

 

[kennyp2339]

Any chance your roof is acting like some sort of air foil when the wind blows?

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

The #2 issue smoke is consistent.

The #1 reload issue was pretty common, I found a good half dozen posts on here. Think about it, you have the main air blasting by the glass then you have a big air pocket in the top of the firebox that intermittently draws some air through. If you open the door and get a burst of air how do you guarantee none of the air and fumes in the intake channels stays 100% inside the stove?

 

[fire_man]

I have smelled the sweet smoke smell occasionally after reload when the stove is burning in pure "cat mode" (no fire in the box). A new door gasket cured it.

WS also recommended a couple things over the years, like regasketing the door frame, changing the bolts in the hinge area, and plugging up a roll pin internally in the stove when they rebuilt it.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Thanks Fire_man. I did have a little bit of the creo fumes with lower flame activity, that is pretty much gone after replacing the griddle plate and getting a better seal. It was literally warped more than 1/8" gap. What roll pin needed to be replaced? I didn't hear about that one. The other fixes don't really seem to apply to the symptoms I have.

I have to leave the window cracked or else I have some clear problems: worse fumes, backpuffing, poor draft. Immediately improves with the window open. Not sure how much it will help to install the OAK with either of the other two problems.

I would never run the stove in "full cat mode" though. I went through that with Blaze King and talking with tons of people it seems clear to me it's a myth that creosote fumes can be "cured' running full cat mode. That's just what they do. Your firebox is full of sputtering creosote sealed off by ropes. It's going to soak in and will burn into your house when the stove get's hot. If you replace the gaskets it will be clean for a couple fires and then resoak. I felt like an idiot trying that with the BK Ashford and wasting so much time. After talking to anyone long enough showing what I went though they break down and admit "well it's not perfect", "I smell a little above the stove but not actually in the house", "it's not actually air tight", "I guess it smells a little, doesn't bother me/most people", etc.

 

[begreen]

My main question here was how much improvement to expect if I add an OAK. Did anyone fix the reloading smoke issue? I heard of many people with that problem.

If cracking open a nearby window about 1" makes a difference then adding an OAK would be a good idea.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Thanks Begreen. It will definitely help not to leave the window open. If I'm running 2-3 days a week I'm not sure if it's worth it though unless it fixes these more major problems.

 

[fire_man]

This is the thread that talks about the roll pin. WS plugged mine with stove cement when the stove was rebuilt.

Progress Hybrid cat question / smoke smell

Couple questions for other PH owners- How often are you cleaning your cat? Last night I noticed more smoke smell (not from reloading) and noticed the flames were really dying after closing the bypass... a sure sign the cat is getting plugged with fly ash. It's only been a month or less since I...

www.hearth.com

 

[MissMac]

Thanks Fire_man. I did have a little bit of the creo fumes with lower flame activity, that is pretty much gone after replacing the griddle plate and getting a better seal. It was literally warped more than 1/8" gap. What roll pin needed to be replaced? I didn't hear about that one. The other fixes don't really seem to apply to the symptoms I have.

I have to leave the window cracked or else I have some clear problems: worse fumes, backpuffing, poor draft. Immediately improves with the window open. Not sure how much it will help to install the OAK with either of the other two problems.

I would never run the stove in "full cat mode" though. I went through that with Blaze King and talking with tons of people it seems clear to me it's a myth that creosote fumes can be "cured' running full cat mode. That's just what they do. Your firebox is full of sputtering creosote sealed off by ropes. It's going to soak in and will burn into your house when the stove get's hot. If you replace the gaskets it will be clean for a couple fires and then resoak. I felt like an idiot trying that with the BK Ashford and wasting so much time. After talking to anyone long enough showing what I went though they break down and admit "well it's not perfect", "I smell a little above the stove but not actually in the house", "it's not actually air tight", "I guess it smells a little, doesn't bother me/most people", etc.

so i think that the key that i just read here is that your performance improves and issues diminish when you open a window. i think this sounds like you would benefit from an OAK. your stove is hungry for O2.

 

[rdust]

2 well regarded stoves with similar issues(smoke smell in the house) safe to say it’s not a stove issue. Chimney, wood or pressure issue.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

2 well regarded stoves with similar issues(smoke smell in the house) safe to say it’s not a stove issue. Chimney, wood or pressure issue.

The are not similar issues I would say between BK and PH. Two stoves with a history of similar "symptoms" --> Not a chimney, wood or pressure issue.

 

[Highbeam]

It sure sounded like you had a smoke smell issue with both stoves.

 

[jetsam]

My BK doesn't push smoke or other odors out into the house, and neither did any of my old smoke dragons (which had considerably less engineering and gasketing to them).

I'd quit looking at the stove and start looking at the venting... slap a used Englander off Craigslist in there for a season if you want a tiebreaker opinion, but it doesn't sound like a stove issue to me.

(Also, if your BK was exploding and backpuffing... venting issue. I read probably hundreds of pages per year of BK owner commentary and chatter, and that's not a thing with those stoves. Was with the smoke dragons if you shut them down too far though... no reburn plus offgassing wood plus loss of flame eventually equals whomp!)