Progress Hybrid house smoke and OAK

[wagne223]

I just reread the first post. It certainly sounds like a low draft issue.
Is it possible that the results from the draft test are incorrect?

Does the chimney terminate at a point above the roof peak/highest point of the house?

If you think smoke is coming from the air intake, then an OAK would help, but the OAK may just become a chimney if there is something wrong with the actual chimney. And that would be a much larger problem.

Another thought, you mentioned the smell is upstairs after a reload. Is it possible that smoke/oder from the chimney is entering the house from the roof, attic, window, or air vent on the second floor?

 

[chipsoflyin]

You'd have to understand a little bit of fluid dynamics to understand perhaps. It's not the draft that causes it to burst out of the seams but speed the air is moving through with rapid expanding gasses. Think about what would happen if water was rushing through the stove instead air with a bunch of rope to seal it off. Just a theory where the smoke is coming from in this case.

The stove is getting hot and burning some amount of exhaust particles into the house, not sure what is confusing about that.

The stove is under vacuum. What you say will occur, will not, the vacuum would be pulling on those seams you speak of. They only way you have those rapidly expanding gasses is when the stove is back puffing which is caused by poor draft.

 

[fire_man]

No, the blaze king would make a lot of sweet creosote type smell and explosions that puffed out smoke when the thermostat damped down the air. Seemed to be a "feature". I exchanged and sold it. If I turn down the PH to barely open it will make the same smell once the flame goes out or is too light. So I keep it open enough to keep a steady flame. Definitely a large improvement.

This is the exact same problem I had with my Progress (backpuffs/explosions and sweet smell when damped down) until I added 30" to my existing 18' flue height. I think you are already at 21' stack height which should be plenty but this sure sounds similar to my old problem (documented in some of my old posts). Can you add a make-shift 3' extension just to prove it out?

So the >50% air setting is when there is 5-10lbs of wood, a normal load that keeps it running pretty clean. If there's more than 25lbs of wood in there it needs to be at 25% or less or it will get very hot.

The chimney is 2ft inside, 2x45⁰, wall exit, tee, 21ft with a 15⁰ around the roof. WS thought it should be on the high side. I measured the draft around 0.15in WC at a higher draft setting.

You are measuring draft when you open up the air setting. Your reload/backpuff issue is happening when you have dampered down the air setting which tells me you have inadequate draft at the low setting.

If anything between the two stoves it's that we notice and care that there's smoke in our house. The issue #2 might be there on any stove, but worse on a Woodstock that has breathable rope seals throughout. We bought the air purifiers knowing this is probably inevitable.

I am really thinking this is coming in from the outside of the house. Is the smell correlated with wind direction? A taller stack could solve both problems.

 

[SpaceBus]

I just reread the first post. It certainly sounds like a low draft issue.
Is it possible that the results from the draft test are incorrect?

Does the chimney terminate at a point above the roof peak/highest point of the house?

If you think smoke is coming from the air intake, then an OAK would help, but the OAK may just become a chimney if there is something wrong with the actual chimney. And that would be a much larger problem.

Another thought, you mentioned the smell is upstairs after a reload. Is it possible that smoke/oder from the chimney is entering the house from the roof, attic, window, or air vent on the second floor?

I suggested this in a previous thread, but was told those areas typically exhaust air, which I also find to be true. In a situation with a tight house slowing down the draft, perhaps those openings could pull in replacement air.

I also just saw the comment about smell seeping out of rope gasketed seams, and I have never found this to be true. While there *may* be some air movement though the gasket, it would be acting as an intake, not an exhaust.

 

[Highbeam]

I also just saw the comment about smell seeping out of rope gasketed seams, and I have never found this to be true. While there *may* be some air movement though the gasket, it would be acting as an intake, not an exhaust.

Like with a hot pile of stinky dog poo, it’s not smoke traveling through the creo soaked gasket that you smell but the gasket itself. There are hot air convection currents on the outside of the stove that waft over that hot rope and can move the stink just like a hot pile of dog poo.

The OP’s problem sounds much more severe. In my mind, it’s almost certainly his chimney. Two premium stoves failed to draft properly.

 

[SpaceBus]

How does creosote get soaked into the rope gasket? I didn't realize a modern, particularly a premium stove, would deposit liquid creosote on the gasket areas.

 

[begreen]

The OP’s problem sounds much more severe. In my mind, it’s almost certainly his chimney. Two premium stoves failed to draft properly.

"The chimney is 2ft inside, 2x45⁰, wall exit, tee, 21ft with a 15⁰ around the roof. Woodstock thought it should be on the high side. I measured the draft around 0.15in WC at a higher draft setting."
There are many moving parts that may lead to tail chasing. Fix one problem at a time and test. I would start with adding the OAK. Then test for several days under varying conditions.

 

[Highbeam]

"The chimney is 2ft inside, 2x45⁰, wall exit, tee, 21ft with a 15⁰ around the roof. Woodstock thought it should be on the high side. I measured the draft around 0.15in WC at a higher draft setting."
There are many moving parts that may lead to tail chasing. Fix one problem at a time and test. I would start with adding the OAK. Then test for several days under varying conditions.

Oh, I read what he wrote.... I remember the previous threads though.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

The PH is drafting very nicely when the stove is actually running. There was one backpuff on a warm 50 degree day with a bad startup and no flame. This is NOT a common problem at all. It's got a great draft. With the BK Ashford I added 3ft to the chimney and it was practically uncontrollably overfiring with any sizeable load. It was more prone to flash back explosions on lighter loads and poor startup (3-4 times per year). That was not the main problem with the BK stove I had in 2018.

So sorry guys and thanks for the suggestions but this is not "reverse drafting", "poor draft", etc. The draft measurements are correct. I work with top industry engineering experts from MIT, Georgia Tech, UoM, etc. and know how to setup basic measurements and get accurate results. The main bulk of flue gasses are all strongly exiting the flue, but some gets trapped and burned in gaskets, some seems to swirl out the air inlet as air is transitioning from loading door to main primary air. This is not some ultra powered vacuum that will suck every single particle and molecule of smoke up the flue, we're talking fractions of an inch WC. A vacuum cleaner typically produces 80in WC for comparison. Is your entire stove interior perfectly clean of soot and particles except the exact exhaust path? I don't think so.

The rope gaskets are definitely not a perfect seal, they are meant to reduce airflow to prevent the stove from overfiring. I'm sorry to say but even with more premium stoves, they are not precision, scientifically controlled appliances. They are leaking some small amount of smoke particles and exhaust fumes into the house. I would recommend people getting some PM2.5 and VOC measurements of their house with and without the stove running if they don't agree. There's scientific studies looking at indoor pollution from woodburning stoves and it's clear they add various pollutants in the house, not necessarily at extremely hazardous levels but still significant levels. Understanding that we're comfortable to use it part-time with some high performing air filters to improve our air quality.

If anyone has installed an OAK on their PH, PM me and I would be interested in asking some questions.

Thanks guys,
Ian

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Both the two problems are pretty consistent. So it seems very unlikely wind related and certainly not getting blown into the house. The reload smoke (#1) is almost every time if the full base of the firebox has large amount of coals, but the (#2) hot stove fumes are every single time. It smells worse the first burn after sitting for awhile (see the WS Progress Hybrid manual for reference). They warn that it gets particles trapped in the gaskets in the off season and burn on the first burn of the season.

 

[fire_man]

They warn that it gets particles trapped in the gaskets in the off season and burn on the first burn of the season.

That's a new one to me. I can't find this in my manual or in the manual on WS's website - must be new.
I thought the startup smell every year was from dust burning off the top of the stove.

 

[SpaceBus]

If you have worked with industry leading specialists from the top universities, then why are you having this problem? My fireboxes are always clean of soot at the end of a burn. Neither of my stoves stink on the first burn of the season, but I also cleaned the exterior of both stoves prior to lighting. I know that fractions of an inch of WC isn't a ton, but I have actual rough cast on rough cast covers on my Morso 2b Classic and no smoke ever comes out of them, but there is some creosote under them. A flame can be pulled through the gaps on both lids while the stove is burning, and my 8" tile flue is far larger than the factory suggested 6".

I've never seen creosote in any of my gaskets, except for when some powder falls on top of the flat gaskets sealing the glasstop on my cookstove. Furthermore I don't get any liquid creosote in either of my stoves. There should never be any soot or creosote remaining in a modern low emissions wood stove at the end of a burn.

 

[begreen]

Both the two problems are pretty consistent. So it seems very unlikely wind related and certainly not getting blown into the house. The reload smoke (#1) is almost every time if the full base of the firebox has large amount of coals, but the (#2) hot stove fumes are every single time. It smells worse the first burn after sitting for awhile (see the WS Progress Hybrid manual for reference). They warn that it gets particles trapped in the gaskets in the off season and burn on the first burn of the season.

Are you running a good HEPA air filter in the room? Does it speedup every time the stove door is opened if a window is also open a little bit in the same room?
What is Woodstock recommending for connecting an outside air supply to the stove?

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I haven't gotten a reply back about the OAK from Woodstock. I don't have an automatic HEPA filter, but measured VOC and PM2.5 with an air quality meter that matches what we smell. It's not smoke spillage out the door, its right after we close the door there's some smoke spillage around the stove.

 

[begreen]

I haven't gotten a reply back about the OAK from Woodstock. I don't have an automatic HEPA filter, but measured VOC and PM2.5 with an air quality meter that matches what we smell. It's not smoke spillage out the door, its right after we close the door there's some smoke spillage around the stove.

Does this also occur with a nearby window open an inch?

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

Does this also occur with a nearby window open an inch?

Yes. No effect. Both #1 and #2 issues aren't fixed at all with the window otherwise I would be quite happy. Just reduces any chance of any initial startup issues.

By the way... The WS manual does recommend having 0.04-0.07in WC without any fire. I certainly don't have that, but sounds like a very stringent requirement that most WS users couldn't meet. My draft goes to 0.08 or so with some pre-heating of the flue but could be down in the 0.05in range before a very cold reload. That plus some other comments on Hearth.com seem to imply this stove needs really high draft to reload and operate smoothly. Like a straight up 24' chimney or 30' + for a wall exit.

Here is someone with a little bit similar symptoms but sounds like a full draft reversal much worse than mine: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...draft-for-progress-hybrid-installation.91475/

Also, a long thread here that has some good insights on the smoke smell. Many users are reporting to smell the "woody smell" but perhaps their houses are more leaky and disperse the smoke around more. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/progress-hybrid-cat-question-smoke-smell.105261/

The section in the manual was the "Routine Checks and End of Season Maintenance". It says that "moisture" can wick through the gaskets but when speaking with either Tom or Penny more than a year ago they clarified that chimney particulates will also wick into the gaskets and burn when it's been sitting awhile. That was one of their first ideas where my issue was coming from.

 

[rdust]

It’s the chimney it’s always been the chimney.....there I said it.
Seriously put an oak on the stove, it’s a good thing to have anyway.

What is the outside area surrounding the chimney like?(tall trees etc).

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

It’s the chimney it’s always been the chimney.....there I said it.
Seriously put an oak on the stove, it’s a good thing to have anyway.

What is the outside area surrounding the chimney like?(tall trees etc).

The OAK seems like a good idea but I have a strong suspicion there will be zero change in the main problems.

How much would you be willing to bet it's the chimney if it were you? $5K? On top of $9K that you put into it? What exactly is "wrong" about the chimney? Other than it drafting high? I could see mine is slightly less ideal for cold reloads... where I can stick in a heat gun and have no smoke spillage. Woodstock says this chimney is completely up to their recommendations and matches thousands of other users.

Seems like there's a lot of people rushing to blame and disbelieve the messenger here. These stoves are just not designed that well. Sorry to say. Not sure why so many people can't admit it? It's elegant and it heats well! Just not clean for the house.

 

[begreen]

The problem is weak draft when the flue temp drops. As the recent polling shows, the majority of members that added to the poll have flue systems in the 15-20' range. They work fine. FWIW, I can run our stove at 50º out without smoke spillage on a 20' flue system. Highbeam's is much shorter. For our stove, there is enough draft for even warmer weather, but then I would need to open the door slowly on a full coal bed load.

What's the source of the weak draft is another question. Based on the fact that opening a window improves startup, there clearly is some negative pressure issue. The exterior chimney is another issue. It's simply colder which is weakening draft at times. Additionally, the terrain can affect draft quite notably, as can altitude. In this case it may be a combination of ingredients.

 

[bholler]

Ok reading through this thread it is clearly either an inconsistent draft or house pressure issue. There is no other explanation for the problems that are going on.

Has anyone been to your house and tested your draft for you? Tested the pressure in the stove room? Your draft measurement could be very high because of negative pressure in the stove room. A draft guage just measured the pressure differential between the chimney and room.

 

[Highbeam]

I don’t think we ever did see any photos of this chimney system. I suspect that there’s more to the story. Then again, I’m not a trained scientist from a top university.

It’s probably the neighbor kid sneaking in at night and smoking weed in the basement.

 

[bholler]

The OAK seems like a good idea but I have a strong suspicion there will be zero change in the main problems.

How much would you be willing to bet it's the chimney if it were you? $5K? On top of $9K that you put into it? What exactly is "wrong" about the chimney? Other than it drafting high? I could see mine is slightly less ideal for cold reloads... where I can stick in a heat gun and have no smoke spillage. Woodstock says this chimney is completely up to their recommendations and matches thousands of other users.

Seems like there's a lot of people rushing to blame and disbelieve the messenger here. These stoves are just not designed that well. Sorry to say. Not sure why so many people can't admit it? It's elegant and it heats well! Just not clean for the house.

If it was truly a problem with the stove design these problems would be much more common. Yes others have had similar issues. But I would be willing to bet they had draft or house pressure issues as well.

 

[SpaceBus]

Has a blower door test been performed on the house? If it is as tight as described, that could reveal a lot of information about how much make up air actually gets into the house.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

What other pressure measurement would we do? Like a pressure measurement at the top of the chimney? With a window open right next to the stove I'm not sure you'll see that much difference between outdoors and stove room. If you read high pressure between stove and room, how would there be poor draft and smoke coming into the room?

I think people either have more drafty houses that disperse the smoke or don't care there's a mild woody smoke odor in their house.

 

[bholler]

What other pressure measurement would we do? With a window open right next to the stove I'm not sure you'll see that much difference between outdoors and stove room. If you read high pressure between stove and room, how would there be poor draft and smoke coming into the room?

I think people either have more drafty houses that disperse the smoke or don't care there's a mild woody smoke odor in their house.

I have burnt atleast a dozen different stoves in 3 different houses and have never had any smoke odor. I have been doing this a long time and diagnosed many problems similar to yours. It is a pressure issue of some sort either house or chimney.

Have you had a pro in your house to diagnose these issues