No bholler, not during the pandemic. I contacted one specialty shop nearby and they did not respond/were not interested. Most professionals in the area would not service something they did not install.
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Progress Hybrid house smoke and OAK
- Thread starter ValleyCottageSplitter
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Are you calling stove shops or chimney sweeps? A stove shop won't help you if they didn't sell you the stove.
There is not a difference around here. If you called a "chimney sweep only" service around here they may have never seen a woodstove before. The people who installed my chimney were a "Chimney Service/Installer". They install hundreds of inserts and fireplaces a year and a small number of Freestanding stoves. They would break out in laughter if I requested some specialty measurements or "specialty diagnostics" of my stove (they did already with the BK).
There are lots of very good sweeps working in ny. Have you looked into the ny guild of professional sweeps?
No, but the NYSCSG member closest to me is the chimney installer. There's one or two others that look new on there I could contact. I'm very skeptical they would be able to do anything to improve my situation unless they charge me to replace the beautiful Progress Hybrid with an Englander 30NC . Right now we're not going to be able to get anyone to help during the pandemic.
Thank you for the contacts.
Why suffer through just make sure they follow all the proper procedures. You are making assumptions about pros you havnt even talked to. And you are right it is just my state chimney sweep guild. There are lots of good talented guys in that guild
Yes, the installers laughed at me, took a look with the stove off and said "yep, chimney is all good. You're probably turning it down too much".
I've talked to 5 or 6 so installers in the area through the process and I get very similar responses and feedback like I mentioned in the posts.
I've talked to 5 or 6 so installers in the area through the process and I get very similar responses and feedback like I mentioned in the posts.
Stop talking to installers and start talking to sweeps who are trained to figure out problems like these. You may need to call around a bit to find one but they are out there
Sure. What I'm trying to say is to survive around here the businesses seems to be expanding into installs, etc. Thus there are many "Chimney Service/Installer" businesses or "Fireplace/Stove Installer" but few "Chimney Sweep". But I think before I start dishing hundreds of dollars I'd rather continue contact Woodstock for having issues with their brand new stove installed to their specifications with a chimney built by an experienced certified chimney installer. I already found one serious defect with the griddle plate, I'm not surprised if there's others. Someone else with a straight 30ft internal chimney and the exact PH stove batch seems to have similar problems.
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The problem with that approach is you had similar problems with the same chimney with a completely different stove. You can talk to people all you want but you need an experienced pro there to figure it out. I can all but guarantee you didn't get 2 defective stoves from 2 seperate very reputable manufacturers.
And yes just about all sweeps install but many installers are not sweeps.
I had two stoves with smoke or fumes coming out under completely different circumstances. There were many other people with the exact same issues with both stoves with completely different chimney configurations. I had half a dozen BK users on hearth.com msg me with the same creo smell issue.
I ran two full loads with this reloading workaround on the PH with a bit more noticeable smoke during loads but drastically reduced compared to the air fully open. Hopefully this workaround doesn't get buried and it helps other PH users.
I ran two full loads with this reloading workaround on the PH with a bit more noticeable smoke during loads but drastically reduced compared to the air fully open. Hopefully this workaround doesn't get buried and it helps other PH users.
how would you know no draft reversal without a draft guage? permanent one not just a quick test.
sometimes its very quick
sometimes it only happens during certain weather conditions..
some stoves do spill smoke more than others on same chimney set up.
even vacustack wont stop 30 -40 mph down draft. Today in new england would be tough day to burn for some stove setups. if my damper is swinging on my home steam heat i know the wind is bad outside.
Did you ever install an oak? Did you ever have any pros other than the installer check out the system? Did anyone else ever measure the draft? Did you ever measure the pressure in the house or measure draft against outside pressure?
Woody Stover
Minister of Fire
Maybe you need to import bholler for a diagnosis. What's another few thousand, after what you've already spent? 
Hey Mr. GLO,
No major updates. It seems to be mostly reloading smoke that lingers throughout the first part of the burn. I tried letting the flames catch while having the air turned down and that clearly does not prevent smoke from leaking out of the stove. I have to both fill stove without any flames catching while having the flames start within a few seconds of closing the door. It's an extremely precise process. I could not train any others here to do this successfully. Smaller loads are certainly way easier (just throw in a couple logs and close the door) but not completely smoke free either.
The smoke really doesn't seem to be coming from a particular spot so I don't think the air intake gasket will help. It really feels like the stove just needs a >25ft straight up interior chimney to pull most of the smoke into the chimney during/after a reload. Maybe there's a couple defects like the griddle plate I found, or perhaps it's just the design of this stove. I found another 2019 PH owner with a 30ft straight interior chimney with similar smoke leaks that also believes it's an interior pressure issue.
I'm thinking at this point for what I have time for, I may go hook up the DWYER MK2 Gauge and monitor for a few weeks until end of burn season. I'm confident in the previous measurements and I will have confidence on these next ones with the PH now. The problem is that if I have much stronger draft, this stove would be close to overfire every time the stove was fully loaded with the air fully closed. I'm close to that now with these big loads. I'll have to adjust the stove to barely cracked and it's reaching >600°F. There's no other gasket issues, I've done a dollar bill test and clear the air is coming from air wash, secondary burn holes or pin hole in the front.
The Magnahelic wont tell you anything about house pressure. I think you will need to buy a pa guage (low readings) trying to convert wc to pa just wont work. The needle will move very slightly. Or hire someone but I wouldn't rush to do that yet. Maybe someone else can chime in. Im not convinced straight pipe is the issue.
Did the dealer take apart the pipe? If the smoke is at reload then I would try to leave air open/ door cracked and burn it up chimney quicker then turn down half way. How far do you turn you air down?
But the smoke test at the door will show you a lot.
I said over 600. I'm talking 625 or 650°F. The WS info that came with the stove says overfiring is at 675°. I'm not sure if you are referring to a "generic" overfire of a stove or the PH in particular. If this 700lb soapstone stove is getting that hot (675°F) something is surely to start to degrade. I see the internal parts glowing (such as near interior firebox exit) quite often even in the 500-600°F range and with the air almost completely turned down.
I'm not sure why almost every post I write needs to be refuted or discredited. That's not very inviting to provide updates to everyone. Some may understand why I'm looking for help elsewhere.
The window is open a couple feet from the stove so a house measurement is not going to help there. Perhaps something to measure pressure at the chimney level outside near the chimney cap... but the pressure at the stove room is fully neutralized.
Two years ago when the Chimney installer came they did take a few parts of the pipe apart and did not think anything was wrong. This is the NYSCSG/CSIA/NFI/NFPA/F.I.R.E. certified installer and Certified Master Chimney Technician that says my chimney is 100% built properly. They were the most "decorated", experienced and heavily reviewed Chimney Installer/Chimney Sweep available. They claim if I was having issues, I should go to the stove manufacturer or get a different stove that they recommended (like a Lopi, etc).
If I leave the door open it seems to be making the smoke much worse. So after a reload I leave the air open all the way for ~10minutes until the fire has spread nicely, then I turn down to halfway until the temperature reaches about 400°F, close the bypass, then slowly start to lower the air intake to ~10% open as the stove warms passes 450°F. Usually it's about 500° before I get to the final 10% open. If I turn down much slower than that there is a higher chance for slight smoke leakage during the burn.
Some stoves and or wood in situations cannot go under 40/50 percent without smoke. Try a smaller load if you are worried about over fire but try running stove at 50 percent air inlet or tad under for a while. I bet when you turn your stove down to 10 percent you are getting smoke out the chimney (or eventually during the burn) and it is blowing allover you house area outside.
On reload when I say leave door open cracked 1/2 inch for a minute or 2 min then close the door. But add some kindling with each reload.
If you want to lower draft get a key damper., but id wait until you take the pipes apart to clean.
" but the pressure at the stove room is fully neutralized" How do you know this without equipment or smoke pencil? Plus it can change during the burn cycle and temp of room and chimney.
The stove pipes need to be cleaned and taken apart each year and stove inside swept and vac. , especially if you had a creosote smell with a previous stove.
My stove is in the basement and it took a long time, $$$ and lots of headaches to solve the smoke issues. Many people on this forum gave me great advice or advice to try something different.
But you need to start with small logs and 2 or 3 year wood, not oak. Every stove problem needs to start with the first rule...rule out any wood problem whatsoever.
Then try burning differently. Not 10 percent air. Shut off all fan/filters.
Try a wind cap. What cap do you have?
Then next step maybe the oak.
"If you open the door and get a burst of air how do you guarantee none of the air and fumes in the intake channels stays 100% inside the stove? " A smoke pencil test near the door will tell this. Also, watching the rear of stove, with a mirror, camera video or flashlight on reloads. Even with a good draft on a Magnahelic gauge you can get smoke out a secondary air inlet. I have proven and tested this on my stove.
Please keep us posted.
Hey Mr Glo.
That is good advice. I have tried a lot of those items and they have improved the smoke leakage. Certainly filling the stove with hickory on a small bed of coals leads to significantly more smoke. I'm now giving some kindling of extra dry sassafrass right on the coals to start it up. I'm moving the coals towards the door and throwing the main mass towards the back so that the air can actually reach the coals and kindling. That helps with this smoldering right after the reload.
I'm not running tons of wood but I've been cleaning sooner than 1 per cord. Including entire stovepipe inside and full chimney outside. It does not seem to affect any stove behavior inside. I get less than 1cup for the whole 24ft of chimney. When the stove is warmed up it is running very cleanly. Even without the catalyst engaged the 2nd air seems to be burning the visible smoke. It's all very well seasoned wood now, like 3yr covered red maple.
The major smoke leakage is clearly related to flow/pressure with the door open. I wasn't sure if turning down the air would help that, but certainly not all of it. If I leave the door open for a long time, it's close to guaranteed at blowing smoke out of some crevices or secondary air volume (As Tom told me directly "This stove is not airtight, smoke can get out in some circumstances"; not an exact word-for-word quote but along those lines). I leave it cracked with a cold stove, once it's warmed and the air is whipping through, the door needs to be shut as quickly as possible.
I was running it with basically cold starts for most of this winter leaving the air at 50% but it does not put enough heat out and burn time is less than 4hrs. That is extremely impractical to use a lot of the time. It's putting out heat like a 1.2cu ft stove/insert.
That is good advice. I have tried a lot of those items and they have improved the smoke leakage. Certainly filling the stove with hickory on a small bed of coals leads to significantly more smoke. I'm now giving some kindling of extra dry sassafrass right on the coals to start it up. I'm moving the coals towards the door and throwing the main mass towards the back so that the air can actually reach the coals and kindling. That helps with this smoldering right after the reload.
I'm not running tons of wood but I've been cleaning sooner than 1 per cord. Including entire stovepipe inside and full chimney outside. It does not seem to affect any stove behavior inside. I get less than 1cup for the whole 24ft of chimney. When the stove is warmed up it is running very cleanly. Even without the catalyst engaged the 2nd air seems to be burning the visible smoke. It's all very well seasoned wood now, like 3yr covered red maple.
The major smoke leakage is clearly related to flow/pressure with the door open. I wasn't sure if turning down the air would help that, but certainly not all of it. If I leave the door open for a long time, it's close to guaranteed at blowing smoke out of some crevices or secondary air volume (As Tom told me directly "This stove is not airtight, smoke can get out in some circumstances"; not an exact word-for-word quote but along those lines). I leave it cracked with a cold stove, once it's warmed and the air is whipping through, the door needs to be shut as quickly as possible.
I was running it with basically cold starts for most of this winter leaving the air at 50% but it does not put enough heat out and burn time is less than 4hrs. That is extremely impractical to use a lot of the time. It's putting out heat like a 1.2cu ft stove/insert.
At this point I would try a wind cap and then the OAK like others suggested but start with a cap. If the weather gets cold again Ill be testing out the rooster tail cap next week.
If they dont help then get a free energy blower door test and you can then seal up the houses and it might help. But they will tell you PA number between the outside and floors and floors between attic and so on and with devices on/off. Contact you electric company and take notes because they might not give you all the figures on paper. Dont assume new houses are air tight. Many sloppy and cheap builders. You might have to tip them to get extra tests.
You could take two hoses from your gauge and put one on second floor and one on first floor and see if the WC. is very high. Then convert it to PA....but I would just get the Blower test and they will walk around with a thermal gun and smoke gun and very accurate gauges (and verify before they come). Opening windows can or cannot help. It all depends on direction of the flow. A second floor window could pull a lot of air out or a leaky attic opening. Invest in a foam gun at home depot. https://www.homedepot.com/p/GREAT-STUFF-PRO-Pro-14-Foam-Dispensing-Gun-99046685/300841046. Dont use the red around any windows or doors and caulk can help too..
Please check on reload (and before start up in intake vent) and let us know which way the smoke is sucking with an incense candle or smoke pencil. When door open about one inch away from top of door...Try not moving the coals either for a while.
These videos help me understand air movement.
If they dont help then get a free energy blower door test and you can then seal up the houses and it might help. But they will tell you PA number between the outside and floors and floors between attic and so on and with devices on/off. Contact you electric company and take notes because they might not give you all the figures on paper. Dont assume new houses are air tight. Many sloppy and cheap builders. You might have to tip them to get extra tests.
You could take two hoses from your gauge and put one on second floor and one on first floor and see if the WC. is very high. Then convert it to PA....but I would just get the Blower test and they will walk around with a thermal gun and smoke gun and very accurate gauges (and verify before they come). Opening windows can or cannot help. It all depends on direction of the flow. A second floor window could pull a lot of air out or a leaky attic opening. Invest in a foam gun at home depot. https://www.homedepot.com/p/GREAT-STUFF-PRO-Pro-14-Foam-Dispensing-Gun-99046685/300841046. Dont use the red around any windows or doors and caulk can help too..
Please check on reload (and before start up in intake vent) and let us know which way the smoke is sucking with an incense candle or smoke pencil. When door open about one inch away from top of door...Try not moving the coals either for a while.
These videos help me understand air movement.
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