Public safety announcement - masonry fireplaces igniting wood headers, etc.

[elkimmeg]

It happens every year when the cold weather arrives. Someone fires up a fire place and gets a lot of invited guest arriving in big red trucks
I just returned home to load my truck with tools for my works today after doing a m disaster fire place inspection. IT is a 1960 cape with the standard brick fireplace that developed
a fire over the weekend The damage is such the house is now un inhabitable. We authorized the ulitities to be severed to it.

We believe the fire started in the header above the brick fire box opening. For 40 years this home was a ticking time bomb, that finally ignited this past weekend. So much for well its never been a problem before.

This made me think about a prior post I made 2 years back about how safe is your current fireplace? I mean we have the questions of what insert should we purchase
Maybe
One should ask how safe is the fireplace it is going to be installed in? We ask about the venting and flue conditions ,but never ask about the fire box. There is a common flaw found it too many fireplaces that are brick front 3/4 up the wall, exposing the combustiable headers and materials above. There seems to be a void between the facing and the lintel/ angle iron allowing a straight shot to the combustiables above. IT's a lot more common than one would expect. These owner bought the home 6 months back and this happened with their first fire

I posting this telling you not to assume all is right and to guide you how to self check you firebox integrity. What you don't know can kill you. This applies to every insert installation. Know the condition of your fire box chimney and flues. Just using a liner does not insure saftey of the fire box . Wood exposed to heat goes through a process called pyrolysis, where its molecular properties change of wood exposed to heat. Over time and exposure the flash point of wood is lowered. It could happen this year or 15 years from now but it is a ticking time bomb to disaster.

This should be the starting point before any insert installation is considered far more important than size room layout or which manufacture or model is being considered
it should preclude all other considerations.

 

[swestall]

You are OH SO RIGHT! I know some folks that moved into a nice old cape home too. It had been redone and looked like everything was new. They had a center behive chimney with four fire boxes off it. The only problem was that only one of those had a new stainless liner, the rest just rose into the old unlined 1800's chimney.
Thank GOD they didn't find out the way your folks did. Interestingly, they found out when they had a licensed professional in to do a site survey for the installation of a new insert: there is a great message in that lesson!

 

[Hogwildz]

Was there an insert in that fireplace or just an old fireplace?
If it was an insert with block off plate, would block off plate have protected this from happening?

 

[JimWalshin845]

Great reminder. We just put back the VC Defiant today after the remodel of the hearth and tomorrow will be heading up to the roof for a chimney cleaning. We bought a new camera a few weeks back that can take about 45 minutes of movie time. So we will lower that down the chimney with a HD flash light above it and then do a video inspection.

Better safe than living in a motel... or worse,
J&K;

 

[iceman]

could someone please post a picture of exactly where this is supposed to be??

 

[elkimmeg]

Was there an insert in that fireplace or just an old fireplace?
If it was an insert with block off plate, would block off plate have protected this from happening?

Hog plain old fireplace and a damper block plate would have not been a factor its in the front of the fire box not at the damper area
To save me a lot of typing I have to go back and find my original post two years ago

 

[elkimmeg]

Fireplaceguy Do you want me to cut and past the NFPA 211 level one and two inspection requirements?

I feel real sorry for not thinking of this earlier so that new purchaser were aware of potential deadly issues.

I'm not a real fan of inserts in pre fabs either its asking thin sheet metal ,at times many years old,to provide the margin of protection

 

[cruzer]

a copy of NFPA 211 to read would be great...anyone have a link to the entire thing or some of it?

I have an 1806 colonial with origonal fire places in it. I occosianaly use the open fire place for looks( i know it doesn't heat worth poopoo) but I am planning and install of and insert or stove...probably next year...

Stew

 

[BrotherBart]

(broken link removed to http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_access_agreement.asp?id=21106)

 

[Harley]

could someone please post a picture of exactly where this is supposed to be??

Ice.... not really sure if you meant the block off plate or not. I think from previous posts - the installation is going to be in soon.... I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but give some details as to the situation you have, and what your concerns are. I'm sure Elk and others will be able to cover what you need to do for your setup (and I'm sure Elk won't mind the off-topic questions)

 

[elkimmeg]

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/393/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/976/

Instead of typing some of the previous follow up post

Harley if the question has to do with safety lets get it out and in the opening for discussion

 

[stoveguy2esw]

elk, guys, this is a great post , i hope for safety's sake that it well read. i for one recommend a fireplace and chimney inspection for any new install, whether it gets heeded or not i couldnt say.

Fireplace safety is somthing that should be well addressed in a home buy or sale for that matter, elk, being in your position , (bear in mind im not as tight on Mass code) you and your buddies in the inspections positions should push for this type inspection being mandatory for pre-purchase IMHO

fireplace guy, im impressed with you and your posts, looking forward to reading your material.

bottom line , in the stove buisness, we can recommend, and im sure most of us do, to have such an inspection performed but we cannot enforce it.(i usually go with the "you werent here when the chimney was built , and you werent around to se it in operation, if you dont know the flue, get a csia , or nfi certified sweep to inspect it before putting it into use") now the advise if heeded can avert this type of disaster, but it takes enforcement, which is where guys like elk come into play. hopefully this type of inspection is , or soon will be mandatory in the u.s.

 

[Harley]

Harley if the question has to do with safety lets get it out and in the opening for discussion

That's what I was looking for... it sounds like he has some concerns, but not really sure what they are.

 

[JimWalshin845]

http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_access_agreement.asp?id=21106

Thank you,

Just added that to my Favorites. Most places I looked when doing the hearth remodel did not let me see the Code without paying for it.

The Hearth.com site and the PROS giving advice here are FAN-nomical(sic),
J&K;

 

[iceman]

Harley if the question has to do with safety lets get it out and in the opening for discussion

That's what I was looking for... it sounds like he has some concerns, but not really sure what they are.

this has scared the @@@@ oytta me i am not quite sure what i am looking when i look in my fireplace
i have my head in there .. am i looking for gaps in the brick or mortar "this gap" that leads to a header through my brick wall??
i am confused with fear now

 

[JimWalshin845]

[quote this has scared the @@@@ oytta me i am not quite sure what i am looking when i look in my fireplace i have my head in there .. am i looking for gaps in the brick or mortar "this gap" that leads to a header through my brick wall??
i am confused with fear now[/quote]

A 'header' is a doubled up support that is supported by 'jacks' on each end. The 'header is vertical to the 'jacks' to supply the greatest support.

You find them over doorwas and archways in most situations. The brick/block work should stand alone on a footing. The arch over your fireplace is supported by a header, a wide expance holding up the ceiling and/or the stories above the fireplace.

You may be able to look farther up the chimney by using a mirror and flashlite, send a video camera down the chimney with a work lite. Or... spend the peace of mind and have it professionally inspected by a BOCA engineer.

 

[iceman]

[quote this has scared the @@@@ oytta me i am not quite sure what i am looking when i look in my fireplace i have my head in there .. am i looking for gaps in the brick or mortar "this gap" that leads to a header through my brick wall??
i am confused with fear now

A 'header' is a doubled up support that is supported by 'jacks' on each end. The 'header is vertical to the 'jacks' to supply the greatest support.

You find them over doorwas and archways in most situations. The brick/block work should stand alone on a footing. The arch over your fireplace is supported by a header, a wide expance holding up the ceiling and/or the stories above the fireplace.

You may be able to look farther up the chimney by using a mirror and flashlite, send a video camera dowm the chimney with a work lite. Or spend the peace of mind and have it professionally inspected by a BOCA engineer.[/quote]
thank you i will look up my flue

 

[Harley]

Ice - can you take some pictures? I'm not sure if others do - but I'm not understanding what the real problem issue is (of course - I'm not saying that there's not a problem... just can't picture what you have).

 

[iceman]

ok looked up as far as i could see with mirror will have to go from the top down
question : not clear about this wouldn't a block off plate prevent heat from getting up the flue into a header
also my chimney is kinda like a wall on the interior i have a total of 6 flues the chimney at it widest point is 14 ft wide in the basement which has steel beams on either side of it
on the next floor is about 12ft wide going up into the crawl space(insulation area) i didn't measure but when it comes out on the roof its at least 6 ft wide if not bigger i will try to post pic of my house but don't know how
this chimney has never been used was inspected a couple of years ago and was "in brand new condition"

 

[iceman]

Ice - can you take some pictures? I'm not sure if others do - but I'm not understanding what the real problem issue is (of course - I'm not saying that there's not a problem... just can't picture what you have).

i just don't wanna burn the house down
and i learned something new so i am looking for any problems
i just wasn't sure where i was to look
i think i am fine seeing i am going to line the a never been used before chinmey but ... like elk says better safe than sorry
plus one thing i am finding out on this site is when people do come over they just do things and leave ..its almost as if they don't know as much as the people here or just wanna get in and out...
much thanks to all you guys

so far i have had some tell me i didn't need to put a block plate at the end of my liner because i had a cap i could basically just let the liner rest up against the flue or jimmy with a bolt
i have been told a block off plate at the insert end was not needed and if i was that worried just put the plate on top of the chimney
what a difference a website makes eh

 

[Harley]

ok looked up as far as i could see with mirror will have to go from the top down
question : not clear about this wouldn't a block off plate prevent heat from getting up the flue into a header
also my chimney is kinda like a wall on the interior i have a total of 6 flues the chimney at it widest point is 14 ft wide in the basement which has steel beams on either side of it
on the next floor is about 12ft wide going up into the crawl space(insulation area) i didn't measure but when it comes out on the roof its at least 6 ft wide if not bigger i will try to post pic of my house but don't know how
this chimney has never been used was inspected a couple of years ago and was "in brand new condition"

For now... maybe this will help.... let's focus on the flue that the insert will be going into (you have 6?). Tell us what's around it. The measurements in feet do seem a little unusual (to me anyway). What is the size of the flue, and what condition is it in. Again... pictures would helo a great deal

if you have some.... just look at the bottom of the bottom of your response post, where you will see "attachments"... you should be able to send them there.

 

[iceman]

ok looked up as far as i could see with mirror will have to go from the top down
question : not clear about this wouldn't a block off plate prevent heat from getting up the flue into a header
also my chimney is kinda like a wall on the interior i have a total of 6 flues the chimney at it widest point is 14 ft wide in the basement which has steel beams on either side of it
on the next floor is about 12ft wide going up into the crawl space(insulation area) i didn't measure but when it comes out on the roof its at least 6 ft wide if not bigger i will try to post pic of my house but don't know how
this chimney has never been used was inspected a couple of years ago and was "in brand new condition"

For now... maybe this will help.... let's focus on the flue that the insert will be going into (you have 6?). Tell us what's around it. The measurements in feet do seem a little unusual (to me anyway). What is the size of the flue, and what condition is it in. Again... pictures would helo a great deal

if you have some.... just look at the bottom of the bottom of your response post, where you will see "attachments"... you should be able to send them there.

 

[iceman]

here are some more

 

[iceman]

one more it was tough holding flashlight and sony cam

 

[webbie]

OK, as the Buddha says, everything in moderation. If we read this thread, it probably means that 90% of the inserts being sold and installed cannot be done, so that means all the manufacturers will be out of business in about 6 months!

So please let's focus on the original post. It was this - AN OPEN FIREPLACE - AN OPEN MASONRY FIREPLACE.

The truisms are this - that NO masonry fireplace is tested to any sort of UL standards, and therefore they (all in all) provide a completely untested and listed way of burning a fire. Truth is, they were designed and built for show, not for looks. My guess would be that the masonry fireplace in question was used pretty hard in order to ignite that header.

Since even a perfectly constructed and inspected masonry fireplace cannot handle the full time heat of an open fire in it, it is no surprise that these situations happen once in a while. Try running your generator, car engine or boat 24 hours a day and you will find out really quickly that they are designed for a certain job.

OK, so onto the insert - in almost every case, a fireplace is made VASTLY safer with a fireplace insert and a chimney liner properly installed into it - in fact, so much so that I personally have not heard of a fire caused by similar circumstances with these installation (ignition of headers)....not saying it has not happened, just that the degree of safety has been increased.

A person who wants 100% safety should simply not burn wood and install the newest and highest quality central heating system available. Whether by an ember falling out the front or other means, a fire in the living areas is by definition more dangerous than none.

Bottom line - you need to know all this information as basics, but too much detail would be like me demonstrating the amount of dangerous germs which you are touching every time you enter a public space - they can KILL you...and even painfully.

So become educated, but do not become paranoid.

As to pre-fab fireplaces, that sounds like a completely separate and interesting discussion. I'm not sure all the stuff in that post is true. I have talked to manufacturers who tested pre-fab inserts in SPECIFIC fireplaces. I can poke many other holes in those theories also.....

But in the end, hearth products are like surgery. Go to one doctor, he will say to operate. Go to another, and he will say watch your diet and stretch. Even doctors have a financial (and also opinionated) outlook on what and why you should do. So take it all in, mix is up, and make your decisions and purchases. It would be very foolish for us to do "surgery" or even diagnosis from afar.