QF 2100, 3100, or Lopi Endeavor?

[wildlingabovethebridge]

Hey folks,

After being almost wrecked by last winter's propane bills and twice having to depend on my backup kerosene heater I'm currently shopping for a wood stove to serve as primary heat for my house. Mine is a 1400ft2 2007 build ranch. Due to configuration of the house the stove will be on the far end of the house from the master bedroom (basement stove/furnace not an option at this time.) I live in the central Upper Peninsula of Michigan which means at least a 7 month burning season (last year was more like 9) 2 of which are generally below zero (F.)

I'm currently talking to two dealers, one is pushing a Quadra-Fire 2100, the other a Lopi Endeavor with blower. Upon inspection i decided I didn't really like the Lopi as the price-to-size wasn't there as compared to other makes/models, mediocre warranty, and the firebox seemed kinda shallow, as did the salesman's knowledge of wood stoves.

This leaves me leaning towards the Quad, but feeling the 2100 may be a bit too small. I'm looking for high heat and long burns that I'm concerned I won't quite get out of the smaller stove. But also worried about low-burning too much in the larger model.

I grew up with wood heat so I'm not new to the function or operation of a stove, but as far as buying a new one I'm not all that sure of myself. And yes I did read the "Choosing a wood stove" article on this site and performed a forum search.

Any insight/advice would be appreciated as I may need to do some smooth talking to convince my fiancée and future mother-in-law (who is funding this as a wedding present) if decide I really want the bigger stove. Thanks!

 

[begreen]

My preference would be the Endeavor. It is simpler, stoutly made, has a square firebox and a bypass for easy starts and cleanings. There is the 1750 Republic if you want a less expensive version of this stove. That said the Quad 3100 is a good stove and would be my choice in a mid-sized Quad. In this size I would also look at the PE Super27 series.

 

[wildlingabovethebridge]

Thanks begreen. I looked up the PE and it looks like a really nice stove and there's actually a nearby dealer, if they offer installation I might consider it. So you don't think the 3100 would be too big?

 

[stovelark]

x2 with BG. Your winters sound like a big heater is needed. I'd second the Endeavor, nicely made stove, big fan of the bypass control as well. The PE 27 or Enviro 1700 Kodiak are nice contenders too. Osburn makes some nice steel stoves if that's the style you're leaning to. Good luck with it, get that wood stacked and drying.....

 

[Grisu]

Do you know how many gallons of propane you used last January/February? That will help in determining the right size of your stove. However, for overnight burns you usually want to get a stove with at least a firebox of 2 cu ft. The QF 2100 falls short of that but there are plenty other options available.

What is your budget? Do you also need a chimney? How tall can that chimney be? Most stoves require at least 15 ft flue length but some can do with less.

Since your house is pretty new, does it feel rather airtight? If that's the case, consider also installing an outside air kit. That will help with draft and be a bit more energy efficient.

What kind of wood stoves did you grow up with? Did those already have a secondary burn? If not be aware that for any modern EPA-approved stove you will need dry, seasoned wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20 %. That usually means the wood needs to be split and stacked for 1 to 3 years depending on the species. We usually recommend to take care of the wood first before even installing the stove.

 

[wildlingabovethebridge]

Do you know how many gallons of propane you used last January/February? That will help in determining the right size of your stove. However, for overnight burns you usually want to get a stove with at least a firebox of 2 cu ft. The QF 2100 falls short of that but there are plenty other options available.

What is your budget? Do you also need a chimney? How tall can that chimney be? Most stoves require at least 15 ft flue length but some can do with less.

Since your house is pretty new, does it feel rather airtight? If that's the case, consider also installing an outside air kit. That will help with draft and be a bit more energy efficient.

What kind of wood stoves did you grow up with? Did those already have a secondary burn? If not be aware that for any modern EPA-approved stove you will need dry, seasoned wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20 %. That usually means the wood needs to be split and stacked for 1 to 3 years depending on the species. We usually recommend to take care of the wood first before even installing the stove.

For just Jan/Feb about 250 gal.

The budget is to find something quality, reliable, and effective while not being too exorbitant with my mother-in-law's pocket book. There is is no existing chimney. The plan is to put one straight up through a vaulted ceiling at about 10'-12'.

It's pretty airtight and well insulated. An outside air kit would be nice, is that something I could so after installation?

We had a Daka wood furnace, a big old Fisher, and some other big stove from probably the 80's or early 90's. I've also dealt extensively with a BK King model and a couple small QFs. Since this stove is a gift I gotta answer the door when opportunity knocks. But Yeah been working on wood since break-up, doing my best to get dead standing but not punked birch and maple. But since winter won't wait for my wood pile I may end up buying some.

Thanks Grisu!

 

[begreen]

With a high ceiling you will be heating more cubic footage. I don't think the 3100 would be too big if you choose it. Just run smaller fires in milder weather and load it up when it gets below freezing. If you like the BK stoves, consider a Princess or Sirocco 30.

 

[TMonter]

For just Jan/Feb about 250 gal.

The budget is to find something quality, reliable, and effective while not being too exorbitant with my mother-in-law's pocket book. There is is no existing chimney. The plan is to put one straight up through a vaulted ceiling at about 10'-12'.

It's pretty airtight and well insulated. An outside air kit would be nice, is that something I could so after installation?

We had a Daka wood furnace, a big old Fisher, and some other big stove from probably the 80's or early 90's. I've also dealt extensively with a BK King model and a couple small QFs. Since this stove is a gift I gotta answer the door when opportunity knocks. But Yeah been working on wood since break-up, doing my best to get dead standing but not punked birch and maple. But since winter won't wait for my wood pile I may end up buying some.

Thanks Grisu!

I have a similar sized primary level on my house and a Quad 3100i heats the place quite nicely and has now for 10 years. I'm in a much milder climate that you are and on some of the coldest days my 3100 can struggle to keep up when it's below zero degrees. My house was build in 77 and the insulation is only so-so but I have upgraded the windows and the attic is R60.That being said I wouldn't go for much smaller than a 3100.

I have no experience with the Lopi but if you are looking for long burn times and great control I'd consider a Blaze King in your lineup. I have neighbor who has one and it works great.

 

[Grisu]

For just Jan/Feb about 250 gal.

Is that for both months or just one? For both, the math would look like this:
250 gl in 60 days = roughly 4 gl per day
4 gl propane = 360,000 BTU (not adjusted for efficiency of the propane heater)
1 cu ft of average hardwood burned in a 65 % efficient stove = roughly 100,000 BTU
Summary: You would only need to burn 3 to 3.5 cu ft of wood in one day to get the same amount of heat your propane heater was putting out. That means you would need to load a stove with a 2 cu ft firebox only twice a day. And that in the coldest winter months. If that is the amount of propane used in just one month, the wood needed would double to 6 to 7 cu ft. Still, that only equals 3 to 4 loads per day and that in one of the coldest winters we have had in a long time.

The budget is to find something quality, reliable, and effective while not being too exorbitant with my mother-in-law's pocket book. There is is no existing chimney. The plan is to put one straight up through a vaulted ceiling at about 10'-12'.

The already mentioned Pacific Energy Super would be a great option for you. It has some of the longest burn times for a stove that size. It is also an "easy breather" which could be ok with a 12 ft chimney. If possible, I would still try to install 15 ft. PE also has a budget option available, the True North. It does not get quite the same burn times as the Super but should still fit your needs and costs about $1K.

Given your low heating load, a small catalytic stove may be the most convenient option for you. A cat stove would give you a more even, low level heat rather than roasting you early in the burn cycle like a secondary burn stove. Plus, you get longer burn times with a smaller stove. A Blazeking Sirocco/Chinook 20 or Woodstock Keystone may be ideal. However, they will certainly cost more.

It's pretty airtight and well insulated. An outside air kit would be nice, is that something I could so after installation?

You will need to make a hole in the wall behind the stove which will be easier before the stove is installed. But yes, in principle you can add it later.

We had a Daka wood furnace, a big old Fisher, and some other big stove from probably the 80's or early 90's. I've also dealt extensively with a BK King model and a couple small QFs. Since this stove is a gift I gotta answer the door when opportunity knocks. But Yeah been working on wood since break-up, doing my best to get dead standing but not punked birch and maple. But since winter won't wait for my wood pile I may end up buying some.

Kudos for getting ahead on your wood. See if you can get some ash, that has a pretty low moisture content to begin with. Softwoods also dry pretty fast. (I suggest top covering those.) Other options:
- Trade some of your green wood for some seasoned wood with someone who is well ahead.
- Look for lumber scraps (non-treated wood).
- Pallets (a PITA to cut up but usually very dry and free)
- Supplement your wood with some Ecobricks or Biobricks or similar: http://www.ecobrick.net/ and http://originalbiobricks.com/
- clean your chimney regularly and test the wood with a moisture meter to identify the drier stuff
- Not sure if buying some will help you. Certainly test any wood you buy with a moisture meter whether it is really seasoned.

Thanks Grisu!

You are very welcome.

 

[wildlingabovethebridge]

If you like the BK stoves, consider a Princess or Sirocco 30

but if you are looking for long burn times and great control I'd consider a Blaze King in your lineup

A Blazeking Sirocco/Chinook 20

With a high ceiling you will be heating more cubic footage. I don't think the 3100 would be too big if you choose it. Just run smaller fires in milder weather and load it up when it gets below freezing. If you like the BK stoves, consider a Princess or Sirocco 30.

My buddy and I's hunting camp (also his childhood home, so been around it since we were kids) is heated by Blazeking. During rifle deer season (usually 25-40 deg highs, 10-20 deg lows) we load that sucker up before bed, and it normally gets stoked back up a good 14-20 hours later after the next day's hunt with it's still red coals. I know they are awesome stoves, and expensive, and the nearest dealer is 2 hours away in Wisconsin. As such I'm not ready to ask for one.

s that for both months

Yep. Thanks for the formula, thats exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

See if you can get some ash, that has a pretty low moisture content to begin with. Softwoods also dry pretty fast.

I have seen it on rare occasion but we dont have much ash around here. Maple, birch, and some oak are our main hardwoods. We do have plentiful soft woods (white/black spruce, jack/red/white pine, tamarack, cedar etc) but enough hardwoods to make it hard to justify burning them.

Thanks for the tips everyone!

 

[Grisu]

Yep. Thanks for the formula, thats exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

Congrats then, your house is pretty well insulated - especially considering that the last winter was very harsh.

Maybe you can switch out the BK from the hunting camp for a cheaper stove and install the BK in your home? Seems such a waste to a nice stove in a house that is used so irregularly. Do you know the model?

I have seen it on rare occasion but we dont have much ash around here. Maple, birch, and some oak are our main hardwoods. We do have plentiful soft woods (white/black spruce, jack/red/white pine, tamarack, cedar etc) but enough hardwoods to make it hard to justify burning them.

The justification for the coming winter would be that the hardwoods won't be dry enough to burn, while the softwood may have a chance to be decent at least. For the following winters, I am certainly with you.

Good luck stove "hunting"!

 

[wildlingabovethebridge]

Maybe you can switch out the BK from the hunting camp for a cheaper stove and install the BK in your home? Seems such a waste to a nice stove in a house that is used so irregularly. Do you know the model?

Lol I wish, My buddy owns the camp and stove, (I just help support it and then of course use it.) I'm pretty sure I'd get shot if I tried to walk off with it (plus it's really heavy, hard to walk off with.) It's whatever the biggest king available was in like '93 or '94.

The justification for the coming winter would be that the hardwoods won't be dry enough to burn, while the softwood may have a chance to be decent at least. For the following winters, I am certainly with you

Good point, I'll buy that.

 

[Grisu]

You could tell him those woodburners on the internet insisted that cat stoves are no good and you are doing him a favor by taking him off his hands.

Seriously, with that low heating load a small cat stoves would be by far the best option for you. If you don't want to appear immodest to your future MIL, think about adding the difference to maybe the Quad 2100 yourself. You and your fiancee/future wife will be much happier for years to come. Besides the BK, there is also the Woodstock Palladian still on sale: (broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/sale) (The Keystone unfortunately not.) Woodstock is a great company that only sells factory-direct but backs its stoves with an unconditional 6-month return guarantee. For the install you could get a certified sweep if you don't want to do it yourself: http://www.csia.org/search

 

[jeff_t]

....and the nearest dealer is 2 hours away in Wisconsin.

Where are you at? There is a guy here occasionally from the Marquette area, and he has bought two BKs in the last couple of years.

If you are using Blaze King's dealer locator on their website, it isn't exactly a comprehensive list.

 

[wildlingabovethebridge]

think about adding the difference to maybe the Quad 2100 yourself.

I'm also considering to graciously accept a 3100, and then in a year or 2 when we have a little more cash (yeah right) pick up a BK and put the quad in the basement or a planned garage.

Where are you at? There is a guy here occasionally from the Marquette area, and he has bought two BKs in the last couple of years.
If you are using Blaze King's dealer locator on their website, it isn't exactly a comprehensive list.

West of Gwinn, about 45min-1hr from Marquette. Yeah the locator said the nearest dealer was Niagara WI, which isn't undoable but adds cost and complexity to an already expensive and complex project .

 

[northwinds]

I wouldn't pass up the birch. If you split it small and stack it in a windy sunny place in single rows, it will burn better than any standing dead hardwood (except ash) for this winter. It won't burn long nearly as long as hardwood, but it will give you heat instead of the hissing and sputtering from oozing hardwood as energy is expended to drive off its moisture.

 

[wildlingabovethebridge]

Yeah this spring I took down a monster 5-trunk white birch on my property worth probably 1-1/2 to 2 chord. I have about 2 face chord stacked, about 2 more split, and about half the timber is still round.

 

[Grisu]

Yeah this spring I took down a monster 5-trunk white birch on my property worth probably 1-1/2 to 2 chord. I have about 2 face chord stacked, about 2 more split, and about half the timber is still round.

I suggest getting the remaining timber split ASAP. White birch rots really quickly when not split.

 

[wildlingabovethebridge]

Oh I know, last since we started stove shopping I've been putting a couple hours a day into the project. The logs of this tree are either a dream or a nightmare to split, no middle ground.

 

[wildlingabovethebridge]

I thought I'd post a follow up in case anyone's interested. I ended up going with the PE Super 27 with a cold air intake, and about 15' of double wall chimney pipe, professionally installed. My selection was indeed partially based on feedback i recived here so thank you all. I just started it for a first time about an hour ago and so far I love it. Starts fast, easy controls, drafts great, throttles great (burn control ranges nicely from almost torch to near completely choked off). So far a happy customer!

 

[jeff_t]

Prove it. Need pics.

 

[wildlingabovethebridge]

 

[Sprinter]

I thought I'd post a follow up in case anyone's interested. I ended up going with the PE Super 27 with a cold air intake, and about 15' of double wall chimney pipe, professionally installed. My selection was indeed partially based on feedback i recived here so thank you all. I just started it for a first time about an hour ago and so far I love it. Starts fast, easy controls, drafts great, throttles great (burn control ranges nicely from almost torch to near completely choked off). So far a happy customer!

Perfect choice (IMHO...) Exactly what I ended up with having gone through the same process. I didn't want to get one too large, but this stove is easy to make small fires in when the wx is warmer but can pump out tons of heat when you need it. I also was impressed with the level of control. As for the "choked off" mention, remember that even with the control full down, you still are getting some air through, as is required for EPA approval. I often operate my stove nearly fully down. Keep watching the forum for operational hints. Good going.

How are you fixed for wood now?

 

[wildlingabovethebridge]

 

[wildlingabovethebridge]

Perfect choice (IMHO...) Exactly what I ended up with having gone through the same process. I didn't want to get one too large, but this stove is easy to make small fires in when the wx is warmer but can pump out tons of heat when you need it. I also was impressed with the level of control. As for the "choked off" mention, remember that even with the control full down, you still are getting some air through, as is required for EPA approval. I often operate my stove nearly fully down. Keep watching the forum for operational hints. Good going.

How are you fixed for wood now?

I should have plenty of wood, got 3 chord of maple and oak plus a little over a chord of birch. Now if it'll just stop raining long enough for me to stack it