Quad 4300 - Better fireplace than stove ?

[Don Bedrick]

On another thread Sprinter told me to relate my stove problems so here goes.
I've got a 3 year old Quad 4300 in our un finished house. We're building out of pocket so it's taking me some time, leaving me time to meticulously track heat loss and gain under every conceivable draft setting, wood size and length, etc.
I've burned wood as my primary heat source in several different houses and I've messed with dozens of stoves - my own and other peoples, for over 35 years, and I've only come across one other (Earth Stove), that seemed to magically burn up wood with very little heat produced like my 4300.
I've got mountains of data on the heating performance of this stove but I'm a slow Typer so I'll give you the condensed version. I've got six thermometers around the house and I know exactly how much heat the house will lose for any given int/ext temp diff.
The barrel stove I had in the house during the first year of const. raised the av. house temp approx 50% more / faster than the 4300 with the blower on, which heats WELL OVER 2.2 times as well as it does with the blower off. In other words, the heating effincy of the 4300 with no blower (which I believe the manufacturer states as 65%), is less than 1/3 than a drafty old barrel stove. These comparisons are for the same amount of wood consumed.
I'm burning seasoned spruce (no hardwood available here), which, as I say, is the same wood I've burned for over 35 years, and running stove top temps between 500 and 600, which requires 1/8 to 1/4 draft approx half the time. At that temp, and with the overall house temp at 60, it's only 65 six feet away at 45 degree angle off the front and barely 80 degrees 4 feet in front directly in in line with the blower air.
I've noticed that its extremely hot with the door open, being the only stove I've neede gloves to position wood etc. so I left the door open and that same thermometer immediately went to125 degrees (or more-that pegged the thermometer). Now you'd expect a little more radiant heat without the glass in the way but not THAT much. Then, with the DOOR OPEN, it raised the overall house temp twice as much as with it closed. The house is fairly tight so there's not a lot of draft, you can change that cracking a window but the point is, something is definitely wrong with my setup or the stove itself.
It only stands to reason that a stove with smaller clearance to combustibles puts out less heat out the back and sides, which is definitely the case with this one. In a "seat of the pants" test. you can walk up to most stoves when they're burning well and feel the radiant heat 8 to 10 feet away. With this one it's 5 or 6 feet in front and 2 feet at the sides.
Sorry to be so long winded and I hope I explained things well enough. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

 

[Sprinter]

Let's get the obvious stuff out of the way first. You mentioned seasoned wood. Do you know the actual moisture content of that wood? That and all EPA style stoves really require wood that is about 20% or you'll have problems. Or how long has it been split and stacked before use? Spruce probably is okay by a year I would think.

Just a couple of general thoughts. That stove probably has some panels on it, so the radiant heat won't be as intense as a straight steel stove would. But the heat is still there, just more convective. Same thing when you use the blower.

Run through a typical start up routine. How hot do you get the stove before you start to turn down the air? Some owners tend to wait too long which wastes a lot of fuel. You should be able to begin turning the air down in stages by the time the stove top is maybe 300. By then the secondaries are working and the flue is hot. I can do it earlier than that even. Do you have a flue thermometer? That can help a lot in determining how much heat is lost up the flue.

If your stove top cruises at 500 - 600 with the air at 1/8 to 1/4, that sounds about right. Is that with the blower on or off? Usually I'd say that the stove is working normally. At 600F, the stove has to be producing heat. Just a matter of radiant vs convective and what happens to it when it leaves the stove.

 

[Grisu]

The house is fairly tight so there's not a lot of draft, you can change that cracking a window

I am wondering whether that is your problem. The stove is starved for air and therefore does not put out a lot of heat. I am wondering whether a lot of stuff goes up the flue unburnt which would explain your extensive wood consumption. Do you have a lot of smoke coming out the chimney or creosote when you clean it? Have you thought about an outside air kit? How tall is your chimney? Double-walled?

 

[Don Bedrick]

Thanks guys. The wood is at or below 15%. It's got 19 feet of stack, mostly insulated double wall. the part thats exposed is Simpson Dura vent double wall un insulated. Actually that's a problem for optimal heat transfer because it's a lot of square inches where single wall would transfer more heat, But that's the least of the problems.. I've switched back and forth between interior and exterior a intake air, with the interior being better because at any temps below minus 15 or 20 f.,it's impossible to get ant secondary burn off the pipes. You'd have to run many feet of intake duct to sort of temper the air temp. And we see a heck of a lot colder than 20 below here. The stack builds no creosote at all. I used to be impressed with it making no smoke, nothing but heat waves, until I realized there are a LOT of heat waves, representing heat that should have stayed in the house. And there's obviously no doubt it's getting enough air when I can easily get the top temp to 5 or 6 hundred. There's lots of heat inside the stove, but it seems with all crap- fire brick, ext. panels, etc. it can only transfer a relatively small amount of it out. Another symptom of the same problem: It raises the house temp almost exactly the same whether you're burning two 5 or 6 inch logs over a 4 or 5 hour period or 5 logs the same size over the same amount of time. Go figure

 

[daryl]

Is there a white ash film inside the whole firebox? I think you might have a overdraft problem. Try a inline pipe damper or have a sweep measure your draft.It should be no more than .08 water column inch's.

 

[Don Bedrick]

Daryl you're right. I get considerable white ash, not all over but along the edges, and on top of the fire brick. The whole fire box appears to stay very hot, and as I said, when you open the door the radiant heat felt is two or three times what I've felt with any other stove. The problem is it HAS to run that hot to transfer any heat at all out of the fire box. I've had a damper in the stack since day one and I've had it in every position many times. It works perfect, reducing the draft, AND THE TEMP. OUTPUT OF THE STOVE, as you close it.
Unfortunatly, we have no sweeps or professional stove guys out here. I've thought about learning how to measure draft before, but in this case, if it turns out I'm over drafting in order to get any heat at all out of the stove, what can be done about it?

 

[Sprinter]

What happens if you turn the air all the way down? It seems to me that if you're draft is too great, you wouldn't need to keep the air at 1/8 to 1/4 to burn adequately. If the fire is too vigorous with air fully down, though, it may be. If the flames are lazy as they normally should be cruising, it probably isn't too much draft. I have to say, though, that minus 20F is out of my experience level. But 19' isn't usually associated with excess draft.

Do you have a flue thermometer on the system? That will tell the tale about how much excess heat is being lost. You would need a probe-type for the double wall pipe. Surface temp on double wall doesn't tell you anything meaningful.

 

[Cynnergy]

My dad has this stove and it's a great heater for him. He has a different setup though - our climate is much milder, a 25' chimney, and he burns seasoned doug fir exclusively. My parents have put an old loveseat in front of the stove about 8' away, and that's a great place to be on a wet winter morning. It is nice and comfy there most of the time, unless the stove room itself has gotten really hot because he's been pushing it hard to get heat to the rest of the house (basement install), so it's not hugely radiant. He doesn't have a blower, just an ecofan.

It sounds like the stove is working OK to me - cruising temps of 500F-600F stovetop should be good. How much home are you trying to heat? Are you running 24/7? It takes about a day for my dad's house to warm up after they've been away. This stove has the automatic air control on it, right? (spring-loaded primary adjustment). How is that working for you? I believe the stove has a separate secondary control as well - lots of settings to play with for sure. I don't get to because my dad is a stove nazi and won't let me run his stove . I certainly love my PE for its simplicity compared to his.

 

[Sprinter]

I believe the stove has a separate secondary control as well

It does? How does that work? If it does and is malfunctioning, that could explain some things.

 

[Cynnergy]

Video for use, see what I think is the secondary control at about 2:30:

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There are definitely two holes for air to come in - one at the back and one on the front, next to the door. I think the one on the front is the secondary control, but they might both be primaries?

Edit: I just watched again, and there are actually THREE holes for air to come in. I think the two on the bottom are the primaries, and the one on the top is the secondary, but sorting it out is definitely out of my league. It seems like the bottom rear is sort of like the PE Summit's EBT, but manually controlled rather than barometric dampered?

 

[Don Bedrick]

Some helpfull insight coming in, thanks. There are 3 controllable holes for draft, one main control run by the top right handle and two controlled by the bottom right that are recommended for start up only. One of these feeds air in the back of the fire box and one the front. When you close that control, the front air shuts off immediately and the rear closes slowly on a mechanical timer thingy. It's supposed to take 15 minutes but mine takes 25 to 30. There's a lever to manually close that one at the back of the stove if you want, which I do exclusively. That whole setup is kind of a gimmick if you ask me. What's NOT controllable is the "secondary burn" air into the top tubes. That has to be restricted with a damper. On mine I get a way better, consistent smoke burn with the damper approx 2/3 closed. This setting increases stack temp at 2 feet above the stove and decreases it above that. The stack temps are relative only because as you say, I'm measuring the outside wall temp. I didn't install a probe but am thinking about drilling through the outer wall and inserting a magnet to stick the thermometer to. I arrived at the draft and damper settings mentioned above after many hours of experimenting but it still is losing way too much heat up the stack. My pea brain might be figuring this all wrong, but like I said, when an in efficient old barrel stove will heat the house so much better with the same amount of wood, there seems to be a major problem.

 

[Sprinter]

Get one of these:: (broken link removed to http://www.condar.com/probe_meters.html)

Very easy to install with only a small hole through both pipes. It will measure the actual internal temp. The surface temp of even single wall is only about 1/2 the internal. It seems likely that you are losing too much heat up the flue. I try to keep the internal temps no more than 400 - 600F.

 

[Don Bedrick]

Thanks Sprinter, I will. I had considered a probe before but didn't want to drill extra holes in my expensive pipe. Funny thing though: When I bought the Duro Guard, I didnt know about probes for wood stoves and I asked the dealer-same place I bought the stove-what I could use to accurately measure flu temps and he said there was no such thing. So much for experts.

 

[Sprinter]

Thanks Sprinter, I will. I had considered a probe before but didn't want to drill extra holes in my expensive pipe. Funny thing though: When I bought the Duro Guard, I didnt know about probes for wood stoves and I asked the dealer-same place I bought the stove-what I could use to accurately measure flu temps and he said there was no such thing. So much for experts.

We hear that kind of thing often. It must be that most customers don't think about measuring flue temps, but to me it's a measure of efficiency. Keep the flue temps down (but above creosote levels) and you're maximizing efficiency since the rest of the heat can only be going into the room.

 

[Sprinter]

the heating efficiency of the 4300 with no blower (which I believe the manufacturer states as 65%)

BTW, your stove is probably closer to 80% efficient as tested in a facility. Of course, that assumes optimal operation. The EPA lumps all non-cats together and lists them at 63%.