Quadrafire Mt Vernon AE/ 'Exploding' E2 Update (or lack thereof)

[Hobokenkitchen]

It's been a while and I wanted to come back in with an update.
For those who need a reminder, we were the first people to have the Mt Vernon E2 unit 'explode' in our home. My husband was covered in burning hot glass but apart from being a bit traumatized was thankfully not injured.

Quadrafire flew out an engineer and replaced the E2 unit with a Mt Vernon AE. The AE unit didn't heat half as well as our old Whitfield or the E2. The room it is in is large (kitchen area) and the AE never got it above 70 and often way below. We spent the whole winter absolutely freezing and miserable. Quadrafire's engineer felt the unit was performing correctly but agreed it wasn't heating well. He seemed mystified.
Wood Heat (the dealer) also sent a tech who changed a small part and changed the settings. It was marginally better after that - it was going through 3 bags a day instead of 5 but we were still cold. He also seemed mystified.

Towards the end of the winter the AE also started to shut down during the auto clean despite cleaning the stove every 2 days.

Those of you who said that Quadrafire would try and weasel out of taking back the AE were right. For a while it seemed that Wood Heat would let us exchange the stove for something else, but then we received a letter from Wood Heat saying that they wouldn't do anything beyond servicing the unit.

Around the same time my 3 year old had an accident and we had to deal with that and the stove situation for put on the back burner.

A couple of weeks ago I called back Quadrafire and spoke to management. They said they would not do any more to help and that they suggest we have the stove looked at by (yet another) tech.

We did speak to an attorney who says we absolutely have a case, but it could be expensive to pursue. At this point it may be worth it on principle.

I am going to try and write a formal letter to Wood Heat requesting that they take back the AE as it clearly does not work for our home. We'll have to see if they rethink their previous response or whether we have no choice but to go to court.

I have now completely lost all faith in Quadrafire as a company and would absolutely never buy one of their stoves again.

We are looking at a wood stove to put in place of the AE in hopes of not freezing our butts off all winter again. Not sure what to do with the AE.

 

[bags]

I remember you and your exploding stove ordeal well.

What are your monetary limits in PA where you live for small claims court? Here in KY I believe it is $5,000 or the last time years ago I did it that's what it was if I recall. What I am getting at is you could file a law suit in small claims court for the max your jurisdiction allows and take it before a judge without the expense of a lawyer. Just have your proof and facts together and be organized about it. Do a time line starting when you bought the stove ( show a copy for proof of purchase etc and the events as they unfolded play by play. Substantiate your problems and claim. The fact problems happened during warranty and Quad flew someone out to investigate and try to fix stuff already puts you at an advantage.

For example you paid or invested say $6,000 for your stove and install etc; Your small claims limit is $5,000 theoretically speaking you would likely recoup the max of $5K then you are only out $1,000. Something beats nothing and ANYTHING beats paying a lawyer.

Just an option. Call your local court house and ask. Usually a big company like Quadrafire won't show for court and you automatically win. They would have to pay a lawyer of their own etc; and that alone may motivate them to refund you and make it go away. Another possibility is to also file a separate small claims suit against the dealer who sold the unit and make them pay too. Double tap these companies that will not back defective junk.

I am not a lawyer and am not offering legal advice but I am a contractor and have done two lawsuits this way in the last 25 years on dead beats that did not want to pay. Sometimes small amounts are not worth going after but in my play book I do make them pay especially when it gets up around $1,500 plus. I work hard for my money and deserve to be paid. SO do you.

Many contractors and people in general who get screwed just let several thousand go figuring they will spend a large portion of their settlement on a damn lawyer. Many dead beats that do not pay know most people they owe money to won't pursue it because of legal fees off setting or equalling the amount of what is owed.

This is where small claims court comes into play. You can do it without a lawyer. If you do decide to use a damn lawyer then make sure that clown asks for attorneys fees and expense in the law suit or motion. If you can not tell I am not a big fan of lawyers. Many of them are scum bags that really do not care about right and wrong or the best interest of their clients. They are hugely concerned with their best interests and how much cash they can score for minimal sub standard performances.

 

[bags]

Also file complaints with the BBB on both companies.

 

[BrotherBart]

Yeah small claims court is the way to go. Rattle their chain. Pics of stuff blasted into your living room will get a judges attention. The problem will be that they replaced the stove and it didn't heat the house. Hard to prove the heating difference.

 

[bogieb]

You guys have been thru a lot in a short time. Hope your child is better! I would look into the small courts thing - my ex had to do that for someone who "fixed" his truck after an accident. Just make sure you have your paperwork in order and a timeline of events. Also document any convesations you had with the dealer / Quad about the AE heating issues (hopefully you have emails, which would be much better). Better to get something back than nothing. Oh, and going after each separately is probably good advice.

Another idea is to look into what fair market value for a 1 YO used stove is (for an individual selling back to a dealer) and adjust the amount you go for in small claims by that much (a 6k stove that is now worth 2,500 for example - then you would go after 3,500 in court). Whatever you do, don't sell the stove, then also go for the full amount - a judge would not look kindly on that (at least not in small claims where you can't claim pain and suffering as damages).

As usual, I am not a lawyer, nor did I take any law classes (besides business law 101), so this is not legal advice, just my special blend of putting ideas together.

 

[bags]

No pain and suffering but it can be mentioned while you are there and judges are humans too. I'm sure they will take it into account. You could also mention you could have gone the pain and suffering route but prefer not to waste the courts or others time and it is a huge safety issue. Throw in the fact you are so fortunate and happy no one was seriously injured and the fact you are not there suing because the exploding stove didn't burn your house down etc. but very well could have caused grave harm and a pile of ashes house.

You simply want a wrong righted or would just like to be refunded what you were screwed out of with all the other serious inconveniences aside.

I feel that Quad knew it was wrong and a serious (possibly life threatening / injury issue) or they would not have invested in flying a rep out to check it out and feel it out. Once the rep reported back and tossed a band aid out then they were willing to take a chance and hope you'd give up etc. and go away.

These big businesses know how to play the game. And they will until they know you are not going away and are serious about it. I'd go in asking for the max without any year old stove adjustments. Let the judge decide if that would be fair. There is also replacement costs to be considered which you should not have to incur IF the first stove and the replacement problem had not happened to begin with.

You are unhappy because you paid a lot of cash for a seriously defective bomb instead of getting a quality pellet stove you believed you were paying for. After all of the chaos you were willing to give them another chance to make things right instead of taking action at that point and they also FAILED miserably there. You just want to be paid back ALL of the money you lost. Pain, suffering, injury, and BS aside. That is fair given the circumstances and it is likely others will see it that way as well

By replacing the time bomb with another shows Quad recognized a problem they were responsible for or good faith to cover their ass somewhat. The catch is the fact they threw a band aid on a problem that needed surgery and stitches IMO. You still have NOT received what you paid for initially. Have you?

 

[rona]

It's been a while and I wanted to come back in with an update.
For those who need a reminder, we were the first people to have the Mt Vernon E2 unit 'explode' in our home. My husband was covered in burning hot glass but apart from being a bit traumatized was thankfully not injured.

Quadrafire flew out an engineer and replaced the E2 unit with a Mt Vernon AE. The AE unit didn't heat half as well as our old Whitfield or the E2. The room it is in is large (kitchen area) and the AE never got it above 70 and often way below. We spent the whole winter absolutely freezing and miserable. Quadrafire's engineer felt the unit was performing correctly but agreed it wasn't heating well. He seemed mystified.
Wood Heat (the dealer) also sent a tech who changed a small part and changed the settings. It was marginally better after that - it was going through 3 bags a day instead of 5 but we were still cold. He also seemed mystified.

Towards the end of the winter the AE also started to shut down during the auto clean despite cleaning the stove every 2 days.

Those of you who said that Quadrafire would try and weasel out of taking back the AE were right. For a while it seemed that Wood Heat would let us exchange the stove for something else, but then we received a letter from Wood Heat saying that they wouldn't do anything beyond servicing the unit.

Around the same time my 3 year old had an accident and we had to deal with that and the stove situation for put on the back burner.

A couple of weeks ago I called back Quadrafire and spoke to management. They said they would not do any more to help and that they suggest we have the stove looked at by (yet another) tech.

We did speak to an attorney who says we absolutely have a case, but it could be expensive to pursue. At this point it may be worth it on principle.

I am going to try and write a formal letter to Wood Heat requesting that they take back the AE as it clearly does not work for our home. We'll have to see if they rethink their previous response or whether we have no choice but to go to court.

I have now completely lost all faith in Quadrafire as a company and would absolutely never buy one of their stoves again.

We are looking at a wood stove to put in place of the AE in hopes of not freezing our butts off all winter again. Not sure what to do with the AE.

 

[rona]

I remember when the AE came out as I got one of the first ones. Nothing but problems and the dealer was no help at all. I had high hopes for this stove but soon found out I had bought a problem stove that was released to the public way to soon before the bugs were found and fixed. Even after being fixed the 60,000 btu stove produced less heat then a Harman PC45 did. For me the problem was it shut off to dump and of course the room cooled off while it shut down and restarted. Maybe I was expecting to much but it just didn't live up to its 60,000 btu bragging point.
I consider my purchase of the AE similar to the story of a boat owner who said the two best times he had with his boat was purchasing it and selling it. The fellow I sold it to had a smaller home and it worked for him. I replaced it with a 50,000 btu Bixby and that worked for me so in the end everyone was happy.
I think Quadrafire has forgotten their goal of satisfied customers and is willing to ignore the problems figuring they have higher priced lawyers then the customers can afford. To bad but after Quad was bought out and soon Harman was bought by the same company customer satisfaction has been forgotten and the quality of these stoves has dropped as seen by the newer cheaper models replacing the heavy duty older models that made the companies name mean quality. A person would be well advised to buy the older proven models and learn how to service them yourself as it isn't that hard plus the parts can be had elsewhere rather then the dealer. One more suggestion is to avoid buying something that you can't get parts for.

 

[heat seeker]

That sounds like the business model we have seen so often - a group buys a company with a good rep, cheapens everything to increase the bottom line, milks the rep for all it's worth, then walks away with full pockets.

 

[Hobokenkitchen]

The attorney we spoke to did recommend us going to small claims court. He recommended threatening double damages if they don't give us a refund. I would definitely want the full price refunded as it never worked and we never got any value out of it. Plus as someone mentioned we need to replace it with something.

I'm going to write them one last letter asking them to pull it out and refund us in full. If they don't we'll look seriously into small claims court. We would just so much rather not!

Kiddo is ok - thanks for asking! : )

 

[stoveguy2esw]

look around online, I thought i saw something about HHT recalling a few thousand of those for that issue. don't remember where I saw it but im thinking its out there

link I saw (broken link removed to http://www.hearthnhome.com/notices/notice-mt-vernon-e2-stoves.asp)

 

[Hobokenkitchen]

Now you see that right there really bothers the heck out of me.
Our stove was randomly shutting down before it exploded so we were cleaning it pretty much daily. In fact Quadrafire's own engineer told us we were cleaning it far more than we should have needed to.

In addition to which the fact that no one has been injured is a miracle. My husband was covered in glass shards. One could EASILY have gone in his eye (he was sitting down), or if our 3 year old had been in front of it it would have shot out glass at eye height.

Also didn't someonenpost on here that their grandchild got cut by the glass?

They make it sound like not cleaning the stove could cause the glass to crack a little when that is clearly not the case.

 

[rona]

Now you see that right there really bothers the heck out of me.
Our stove was randomly shutting down before it exploded so we were cleaning it pretty much daily. In fact Quadrafire's own engineer told us we were cleaning it far more than we should have needed to.

In addition to which the fact that no one has been injured is a miracle. My husband was covered in glass shards. One could EASILY have gone in his eye (he was sitting down), or if our 3 year old had been in front of it it would have shot out glass at eye height.

Also didn't someonenpost on here that their grandchild got cut by the glass?

They make it sound like not cleaning the stove could cause the glass to crack a little when that is clearly not the case.

Don't be afraid of the court system. I had to use the small claims court and at first it was a hassle because I have never been involved with it but you have all the information you need and need only to present it in a manner that makes sense to a judge. You can get free help to do this then when you present the dollar amount start with the total of the stove, pipe, labor, then include a substantial bill for cleaning the broken glass and time you have spent talking to the dealer. I would also add time you didn't have a working stove and had to buy lp or electric heat. Actually I would go after both the dealer and the company separately but for the same amount. This will put pressure on the dealer. May as well be honest and say neither is going to be your friend and give you money unless prodded by the judge. I was friends with a dealer who got sued and he gave the customer the total amount back plus went and got the stove and other equipment. He said I can't afford a disgruntled customer. That stove worked but the house didn't have insulation so it never got warm. In your case it should be a slam dunk.

 

[DrewAtFPS775]

Just an FYI, Quad is now replacing all of the wireless remotes on the E2's with a wired, programmable thermostat. No advanced functions like the AE, but 5-2 4 step program.

 

[smwilliamson]

HHT did issue an official recall through the consumer safety board on 2000 or so units. They are changing out the tstat. Basically you bought stove A and they replaced it with stove B. At the time the deal was struck with you there was no solution to the problem. The AE is actually a bigger stove but is a lot the same as the E2. Surprised it is working out for you.

 

[Lake Girl]

Also didn't someonenpost on here that their grandchild got cut by the glass?

I think it may have been danni1085 but they haven't been around since March. Search the forum for threads that are relevant to your small claim and print them.

Agree that small claim court is a start ... Why is the dealer refusing to warranty the replacement stove?

Didn't you say you had a Whitfield prior to the E2/AE and that heated well? Did you use other heat since the AE was installed? If you can show a large variance in heat consumption over the previous year, you can make the claim that it is not doing the job. Also, can you validate the increase in consumption compared to the old stove with pellet purchase receipts ... would help if they were credit card and/or bulk purchases or from a consistent vendor.

Wood stove heating has it's own set of problems - like a wood supply that is dry (moisture meter on a split). Most folks have a supply of wood 2 to 3 years in advance of need so you are already behind for next winter (not to mention this winter).

 

[Lake Girl]

Actually, just discussing this with Hubby (not a lawyer either). You were sold an item that produced a certain amount of heat performance. It exploded. The replacement doesn't produce as much BTU as the stove you were sold (that would be the one that exploded). The company and/or dealer were not able to provide you with the stove you bought at the performance level they stated ... money should be refunded.

Class action otherwise....

 

[Lake Girl]

Some of the postings on this thread may prove the point on not being what you were sold in heat performance ...
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/quad-e2-new-mother-board-low-heat.142803/#post-1946266

 

[smwilliamson]

Actually, just discussing this with Hubby (not a lawyer either). You were sold an item that produced a certain amount of heat performance. It exploded. The replacement doesn't produce as much BTU as the stove you were sold (that would be the one that exploded). The company and/or dealer were not able to provide you with the stove you bought at the performance level they stated ... money should be refunded.

Class action otherwise....

You need several other plaintiffs for class action....

 

[Don2222]

Hello

According HHT the he Quad E2 - $3749.99 puts out 52,000 BTUs and the Quad Mount Vernon - $4488.00 puts out 53,300 BTUs


Why not get one of these that will throw out more heat?

Hudson River Kinderhook rated at 59,000 BTUs - $2609.10
http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-...t-Stoves/Hudson-River-Kinderhook-Pellet-Stove

Or
Harman P68 rated at 68,000 BTU - $4099.00
(broken link removed to http://www.harmanstoves.com/Products/P68-Pellet-Stove.aspx)

Or my favorite because it has the high tech touch screen and you can hook up a T-Stat
Osburn 7000 rated at a whopping 70,000 BTUs - $4549.00
http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-Stove-and-Accessories/Pellet-Stoves/Osburn-7000-Pellet-Stove

 

[Lake Girl]

You need several other plaintiffs for class action....

Realize that but wonder if all 8 that exploded and all 2000 that were sold a specific stove with a specific efficiency rating and BTU output are happy with the outcome.

 

[Hobokenkitchen]

We sent Wood Heat a letter registered mail yesterday. I tried to keep it unemotional and fact based. We asked once again that they refund our money for the stove.

If they don't respond within the next week/ 10 days we will start the small claims process. I will probably start calling and figuring out how and where we need to file on Monday so we can smoothly start the process if the response from Wood Heat is unsatisfactory.... or if we get no response at all.

Lake Girl that's a good idea on pellet consumption. I know I could prove what we bought last year, but I'm not sure about the year before that.
We did have an old Whitfield pellet stove before the E2 and while it was cranky, it did heat the space.

 

[rona]

We sent Wood Heat a letter registered mail yesterday. I tried to keep it unemotional and fact based. We asked once again that they refund our money for the stove.

If they don't respond within the next week/ 10 days we will start the small claims process. I will probably start calling and figuring out how and where we need to file on Monday so we can smoothly start the process if the response from Wood Heat is unsatisfactory.... or if we get no response at all.

Lake Girl that's a good idea on pellet consumption. I know I could prove what we bought last year, but I'm not sure about the year before that.
We did have an old Whitfield pellet stove before the E2 and while it was cranky, it did heat the space.

For what its worth each winter is different so you can't really compare amount of pellets used. Plus different stoves are more efficient in capturing heat and dispersing it in the room versus out the exh pipe. One stove can burn less pellets yet have a warmer room then a different model which burns more pellets but the heat goes out the exh pipe. The big problem is the btus that is displayed is based on the amount of pellets the stove can burn rather then the actual efficiency of the stove. This doesn't have any thing to do with a exploding stove but I had a AE and one of the reasons I got rid of it was I burned more pellets then the previous winter and we were cold all winter.
To me the fair settlement should be to give you the money you spent for the stove and installation and let you make the decision of what type of replacement stove you will get.
After you get the money I would list what you want in a stove Being you had a 60,000 btu stove- the AE- I would lean toward a 68,000 btu Harman pellet stove. They are proven and a simple stove to run and maintain. It would probably run at 50 to 75% of its capability which will be the most efficient setting. The same company owns both Harman and Quadra-Fire and the AE should have had the larger price as they were more computerized. I am thinking that AE was kind of forced on you after the other one blew up

 

[smwilliamson]

To me, what you're seeking doesn't add up. The AE which was the replacement option, is a bigger stove and is more expensive. In your argument, it would seem to me that mentioning that the stove "didn't heat your space" is the wrong approach. I think you may me skirting the edge of the "never satisfied" consumer and its going to if it hasn't already, led HHT and the dealer to ignore you. The AE is a proven stove from a proven company. The fact that you accepted the stove and it is currently installed gives them an out. Any reasonable moderator is going to see this. I curious about the end game and wonder what your idea of a resolution is. Do you want all your money back? What about the good faith effort already shown from dealer and mfg? Each side deserves fair compensation unless it can be proven that HHT or the dealer somehow benefitted from the switch out. AFAIK, you aren't seeking tort. You aren't seeking a new E2 with the recall fix either. Legally speaking you accept partial risk just by entering into the deal. Nobody forced you to buy from this dealer or buy that product. HHT replaced the unit already with a more expensive and proven stove, albeit not the same model but they did "upgrade" you. They haven't asked for money to make up the difference from what I understand. The adage,"the consumer is always right" doesn't hold up in court. I think if you are planning on winning this thing on its merits, you need to show a reasonable, fact based argument with a diplomatic resolution. Remeber, this isn't going to a judge or a jury. It's going to be heard by a moderator who doesn't have the authority to fill in the blanks. Don't assume, as one member here suggests, that both dealer and mfg. will be a no show and you win defacto. HHT has all the resources to their appropriations. They will move a mountain out of the way to gain 5 more seconds of sunlight on their brands.

My suggestion. Ask for the E2 with the fix. That is your logical play. Aside from the incident, you liked the unit, it's the unit you paid for and it heated your space. There is a fix now but there wasn't when you need a resolution. Anything short of this I feel like you are setting yourself up for an unfavorable ruling. Additionally, speak kindly with efforts towards a resolution in the best interest of all involved parties. Be careful what you post here, don't think HHT isn't monitoring your every move. I know for a fact that HHT has sent reps to speaking engagements I've attended just to take notes on what I or my collegues are saying. Don't assume for a second that HHT will not defend their position. They aren't evil either but they are super duper protective of their brands and would have no problem at all spending thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, time and effort to get a favorable judgement, albeit in a small claims matter. They understand the concept of precedent and the larger implication a "non-favorable" outcome.

Just my thoughts.

 

[smwilliamson]

Hello

According HHT the he Quad E2 - $3749.99 puts out 52,000 BTUs and the Quad Mount Vernon - $4488.00 puts out 53,300 BTUs


Why not get one of these that will throw out more heat?

Hudson River Kinderhook rated at 59,000 BTUs - $2609.10
http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-...t-Stoves/Hudson-River-Kinderhook-Pellet-Stove

Or
Harman P68 rated at 68,000 BTU - $4099.00
(broken link removed to http://www.harmanstoves.com/Products/P68-Pellet-Stove.aspx)

Or my favorite because it has the high tech touch screen and you can hook up a T-Stat
Osburn 7000 rated at a whopping 70,000 BTUs - $4549.00
http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-Stove-and-Accessories/Pellet-Stoves/Osburn-7000-Pellet-Stove

Going to court and seeking relief or a remedy isn't an open invitation to create a "wish list" for future shopping excursions. Replacing any Quad with a Hudson River Kinderhook has to be the dumbest possible remedy imaginable.