Questions about Stove Insert

[TrailRunner]

I looked for an FAQ or guide to answer these questions. I also did a search. I still have some newbie questions. Advice/recommendations welcome.

If I have rehabbed the kitchen and a bathroom, put on a deck, can I install the stoveinsert and piping safely myself, or should I leave this to the professionals? I have a ranch with with a fireplace and masonry chimney. Fireplace opening is 28H x 34W x 25D. Here's my situation.

I have to replace my flu liner for my fireplace. It looks like it wouldn't be much different to get a stove insert and get the reduced size flu liner. I'm looking at wood insert. So, I'm not looking to heat all 1800 sq. feet. I'd be happy with a lower BTU output unit that was good looking.

First, I live in St. Louis. Our winters are not too bad, although it's been in the teens the last few days.
Second, I cannot believe how many brands of stove inserts there are. I have no clue what is good/bad. There seems to be a lot of healthy competition out there. Are there brands/models I should steer clear of?
I doubt I'll be a heavy user of the stove. I have a high-efficiency gas furnace. (Wouldn't you know I just had that furnace installed.) I believe that a non-cat stove would be fine. Stove inserts seem alien to this area; my wife isn't sure whe wants one.



Thanks,

Dan

 

[budman]

Hey Dan from the way it sounds to me i think you should stick with the furnce
and forget the insert.

 

[Rhone]

I have to agree with Budman, unless the new insert + liner costs as much as replacing your old liner you won't get your money back burning wood occasionally. I purchased an insert, one of the upper class models and it cost me $3,300 installed complete with liner 2 years ago. I purchase my wood and save myself somewhere around $300-$400/year over oil and I burn 24/7 to maximize my payback. If I got my own wood, it would be more like $1000+/year savings.

For the occasional use I don't think you'll make your payback, particularly against a high efficiency boiler/furnace. There's other reasons, not having a dependancy on foreign oil, it's environmentally friendly, you enjoy the fire, but in your situation return on investment probably won't be one of them. It is something you can do yourself... it won't be easy but if you have questions ask here and give sizes (like your flue size) many of us have installed our own. As for inserts, I recommend you pick one based on looks first & foremost. You'll be looking at it all winter, summer, etc. so you better like the one you're looking at. Particulates aren't a good judgement getting one that puts out 2 grams/hr vs. 4 will only save you about a split/year. Efficiency, depends largely on the user, comparing my efficiency vs. my wife's we're night and day and that's using the same insert. Wood burning is an art, and some people are better at the art than others. Max btu's doesn't matter, max btu's is like the maximum RPM's of your car engine before you red line. Not very useful and you'll put a lot of wear on your unit trying to maintain it at the max btu's. House sq ft it can heat is also not a good indicator. Is a stove that says can heat up to 1,300 sq ft going work well in an 1800's 1,300 sq ft farm house in Alaska? How about a 1,300 sq ft high efficiency house built in Tennessee in 2005 using the newest building practices. I think looks, and firebox size, are the two most important factors.

 

[kevinmoelk]

I don't know about that Budman, Rhonemas,... I only use my stove for supplemental heat. I have a free standing stove, but like yourself TrailRunner, I knew from the start I would not be a 24/7 hardcore wood burner. I installed the stove for emergency heat, atmosphere, and supplemental heat. My oil furnace doesn't come on when the stove is in use, but the oil furnace does kick on early morning before I can get the stove up to temp again. All in all I love the stove, and the lifestyle of splitting the wood, and so forth.

Wood is messy however, so if you are not wanting to deal with a mess perhaps a pellet stove or gas stove may be a better option for you.

As far as doing it yourself, that purely depends on your comfort level. You must have some basic tools, level, plumb bob, sawzall, etc. I'd say if you remodeled your kitchen that the members of the board here can guide you through an installation. Just have to be paitent and keep safety in mind at all times.

For insert suggestions, I'll leave that to others more qualified. Just stay away from Vogelzang at all costs. It largely will depend on your budget and desired styling. Lots of good stoves out there to choose from. Tell us more about your layout, expectations, home construction, etc.

Welcome to Hearth TrailRunner.

-Kevin

 

[TrailRunner]

Yes, I understand why you are puzzled. I have a chimney/fireplace that does not work due to a flu fire and an insurance check to pay for a fix. I'm looking into whether the wood stove insert and necessary hardware might cost about the same as an 11" flu liner installed.

1. I'm trying to get preliminary pricing together to see if the cost of the repair/installing a stove insert is about the same.

2. Assuming it's about the same, I have to select a good dealer. I'm not sure how to do that yet. I have some fireplace shops that sell them, and in the country I have some places that carry a bigger line. How do you select a good dealer?

3. Then, to save money, I'm asking what are the pros/cons of doing this myself.

 

[TrailRunner]

Thanks for the welcome. I feel the warmth. Ok, you've heard that one. Seriously, this is a very nice forum. Interestingly, the flu liner repair is about $3500, so we'll see if this dog has legs. I have a $1000 deductible, so I would like to get that amount lower if I can.

Thanks for your feedback so far.

Dan

 

[Gooserider]

First the DIY question - it sounds like you are reasonably decent with tools, know which end does what and all that, so from that standpoint it certainly is possible. You will need to be the sort of person that feels comfortable on a ladder and rooftop, and possibly doing a bit of masonry and / or metal work. Otherwise it's mostly a matter of reading and following instructions, and a few places where having some muscular help can be a really good thing. Depending on how your local code people are, you may also need to be able to get along with the gov't inspector types.

I would start by talking with your local code enforcement types to find out how they are to deal with, and get a handle on what inspections they are going to want to do and when, possibly also your insurance co.

Cost wise, a 6" liner will be MUCH less than an 11" liner, but it's arguable whether you'll save enough between the lower cost liner and the labor by doing it yourself to pay for the insert. I'm not an expert on prices, but from what I've seen, a liner kit will run $3-500.00 depending on quality, chimney size, and so forth, and inserts run $1500 and up, probably averaging in the $2-2.5K range depending on how fancy you get, size, and so forth. Shouldn't be to hard to stay within the $3500 budget, but might be difficult to shave much off of it. If you can find a used insert (harder to do than with stoves) that will fit you might save some, but that gets its own hassles. The result is something that will work like your fireplace, except that it will actually give you some real heat.

Picking a dealer is a challenge - unless there is someone you can trust with specific recomendations it's mostly a "trust your feelings" sort of deal. I'd read some of the safety threads on here, and see how they respond to "leading questions" like asking them about bottom blockoff plates, insulating liners, and so forth, see if they seem to know their stuff or if they sound like BS artists.

Mostly I'd pick the insert you like, then try to find a dealerthat carries that line. As has already been said, choose an insert you like the looks of first, then worry about the rest. The emissions differences between EPA II approved inserts (the only ones you should consider) aren't enough to worry about. Cat vs. Non-Cat is a religious argument, I'd consider it a secondary factor at most. Given your fairly mild climate, I'd expect the sq. foot estimates in the ads to be reasonable, maybe discount them a bit. Howevever it is worth noting that the biggest single factor that determines heat output is the size of the firebox, units that have similar size boxes will make similar amounts of heat, no matter what the adds say.

As to brands - you've already been told to stay away from Vogelzang, I would also avoid Lennox, and anything that is imported from Asia, The European imports are mostly OK, as are the US and Canadian brands like VC, PE, Englander and Hearthstone / Woodstock.

Hope this helps,

Gooserider

 

[mlouwho]

Trailrunner, I might alos suggest you look at a DV gas insert. You said you probably won't burn the wood too often, so that will mean that is is $3000 just sitting there, looking ok. A gas insert, because it is easy to turn on & off, you will use more frequently. It will actually lower your gas bill when you use it. It will make the wife happy because you will not be bringing in the wood mess. It will add some extra warmth on these cold winter days. Just a suggestion, itis only worth what you paid for it.

 

[Gooserider]

Trailrunner, I might alos suggest you look at a DV gas insert. You said you probably won't burn the wood too often, so that will mean that is is $3000 just sitting there, looking ok. A gas insert, because it is easy to turn on & off, you will use more frequently. It will actually lower your gas bill when you use it. It will make the wife happy because you will not be bringing in the wood mess. It will add some extra warmth on these cold winter days. Just a suggestion, itis only worth what you paid for it.

Don't want to argue or hijack the thread, but how do you figure a gas insert would lower the gas bill? It seems to me that TR said he had a high efficiency gas furnace, so I don't see how he would get more heat by running a therm of gas through the insert than he would get out of running it through the furnace... After all if the gas inserts were that efficient, why aren't we all running them instead of furnaces?

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

He has a chimney unsafe to use that needs a UL1777 aproved liner to get that chimney back to safety for wood burning
the gas stove idea is a good one but less effecient that using a hiugh effecient furnace
if he has a wood suppply and can get replacement wood fairly cheap t and like the looks of fire then his original thoughts will work
One could pick up an instert Englander / Century for under $1000 a Lopi or Avalon for less than $1200.

Liner and insulation kit block off damper plate for under $1000 he does the install now he has use of his chimney and the benifit of a real fire flame to watch and supplememtal heat and saved $1000 from the re-lining estimate

 

[ozarkjeep]

Hello there,

North West Arkansas here, so very similar weather ( snow last night!), and alot of the same reasoning and thoughts last November when I ripped out Gas logs, installed a wood burning insert, and a stainless liner into my old fireplace ( installed by myself)

Found a used EPA certafied stove in the local paper $350
Ordered a 20' 6" stainless flu liner Ebay $340
stove clean, repaint, re-gasket $40 ( and several hours of time)

Ive scavenged alot of wood from my back lot, and some more from freinds, bought 2 ricks last month for $80 delivered.

so, a total of $810

and my gas central heat furnace only comes on early in the mornings before I reload the insert, or if I let the fire die down during hours im gone to work ( which I often do, since no one is home, and to conserve the wood pile)

so, you CAN do it yourself, you CAN find things cheaper than new, and ive already saved a few hundred on my gas bills compared to last years usage.

I think the total install cost will be recouped this year.
NOTE, I dont have a high effeciency furnace though! ( its probably 15 years old)

 

[MrGriz]

Your plan sounds like a good one to me. It sounds like you have good DIY skills and are not afraid to tackle a project. I think that with a little research and some good questions (which you can get answers to right here), you should have no problem installing your insert.

As to selecting a dealer. I would first look at inserts to determine the style and manufacturer that is most appealing to you. I would focus on a style that you like, since the quality and features of many new inserts seem quite consistent between manufacturers. After narrowing it down to a couple of choices, I would do a lot of reading here regarding installations. Once you are armed with the knowledge of what makes a proper, safe installation, head out to the local dealers who sell the insert you are interested in and ask some questions about their installation practices. Even if you will be doing the install yourself, the way they answer these questions gives you a little insight into the way they run things.

After finding an insert and dealerthat you are comfortable with, I would recommend buying the insert, liner and any other supplies locally. If you do your own install, the local dealer will be more willing to advise and help down the road if you purchased everything from them versus online.

This is basically the process I went through last September / November. I was able to buy the insert, liner and materials for approximately $2,500.00 and did the install myself. We couldn't be happier with the way things turned out. This has been my primary source of heat this winter. Not only am I saving money on the electric bill, I am enjoying the lifestyle that goes along with wood burning.

Good luck with your decision, don't be afraid to ask questions and keep us posted.

 

[carpniels]

HI TR,

I agree with ozarkjeep. If you can wait and spend time doing research on wood inserts, it will be well worth it. I did that and bought all my wood stoves used. Just do the research, find out what is best in your application and then find it used. If you have patience, you will find your insert at 50% off if not more.

With your expertise in building, you can do the flue reline yourself. No problem.

Go for it. You can do it.

Carpniels

PS. when choosing an insert, get the largest firebox insert that will fit the fireplace. That is, unless your wife hates the styling, then you compromise. The larger to firebox, the less cutting and splitting you need to do and the longer the fire lasts through the night. You might not care about that right now, but if you ever do, it is a pain in the rear to find another insert, sell this one and swap them.

 

[TrailRunner]

I've received lots of great responses. The insert selection will probably hinge on the WAF (wife acceptance factor). I'll take her to some stores for her to see for herself.

A lot is going to depend on the look, as the fireplace is central to the house. You see it as soon as you open the front door. In most things she is not picky, but I don't think she wants something that overwhelms the room. I went to a very nice dealertoday. I liked the looks of the blaze king OK. I really liked the Xtrodinair 33 Elite. It looks great, but the price is UP there. The store has Napoleon, Blaze King, Xtrordinair, Jotul, Vermont Castings.

I'll take her there over the weekend if she wants to take an hour drive.

Take care,

Dan