Recommendations for new fireplace

[Dizzy8]

Hello! I could use your help I am getting ready to build a new home and have time to make changes in the design to accomodate the right fireplace for our needs.

I am not sure of the terminology: We have an insert in our home now and we love the warmth it puts out with the blowers on. Something like that that looks more like a natural wood fireplace would be great (bigger glass? Less "stove-looking metal" blocking our view of the fire?). So I think I am looking for a fireplace insert that I will put stone around (hearth flush with floor) and then run the flue up through the interior of the house (boxed around of course). Right now, the fireplace is as shown in the attached sketch, but I could be pursuaded to move it closer to the kitchen (especially if there were reasonable 2 sided models out there!!).

We are not looking to use wood as our primary heat source. It is nice to be able to get some real heat out of it in the clod winter days. We have 5 acres of land to get some wood off of. We want to be able to not fear freezing in a power outage and we love the fire going- as long as it is really doing heating of the house and not just going up the chimney. Price is a consideration- we are people that prize function over looks.

Could anyone give us recommendations of size of unit that might be appropriate? Brands to search for? Terminology to tell me what I am looking for and what to avoid?

Thank you so much!

 

[scfa99]

Since its new construction you'll want to go with a epa certified fireplace. take a look at the quadrafire 7100, BIS Ultima, theres a bunch more out there. I can only speak to the Quad as I have one and a buddy of mine has one. Since your doing new construction it gives you the ability to hook up 2 runs off the stove to supply hot air to additional rooms in your house. Let me know if you have any specific questions on the Quad, or do a search i have a lot of feedback and pictures posted on here.

 

[DiscoInferno]

What he said. There are a lot of zero-clearance EPA fireplaces, probably mostly comparable. They will all put out heat like a good insert. So shop on price and looks.

I don't recall seeing any 2-sided ones, although I wasn't looking for that.

 

[webbie]

Besides those mentioned, check out the RSF - one of our long term sponsors....BUT, they were also one of the first - or perhaps THE first, to produce a line of super-efficient fireplaces.

There may be some two-sided models, but I suspect they are not quite as efficient - which may not be as important to you for occasional use. In other words, 50% efficiency may be OK for you as opposed to 70.

The terminology is pretty much:
Efficient built-in zero clearance fireplace
or
EPA approved built in fireplace
or
Built In Stove (that is where BIS name came from).

RE: Price - spending more in this realm does not always mean getting more. A good unit will function well without a blower - and gold trim and other assorted options do not add to heat output. So shop around - as they say, there is an ass for every seat and one of the manufacturers probably has you (a value customer) in mind.

 

[Dizzy8]

Thank you! I didn't know "zero clearance" was the term I needed for flush to the floor.
Please tell me more about not needing a blower- I thought you needed that to get the heat into the house instead of up the chimney. . . how does a fireplace work efficiently to heat your house if it doesn't have a blower?
Also, how do you duct the heat to other rooms? Are there pictures anywhere to show me where the ductwork would need to be so I can see how that would fit into things?

Thank you for the time you all took to reply I am definately at the beginning of my search and have a lot to learn

 

[DiscoInferno]

RE: Price - spending more in this realm does not always mean getting more. A good unit will function well without a blower - and gold trim and other assorted options do not add to heat output. So shop around - as they say, there is an ass for every seat and one of the manufacturers probably has you (a value customer) in mind.

That said, I don't recall coming across any EPA fireplaces that were the equivalent of a Century or Englander free-standing stove in terms of low-cost functionality. Seemed to me that $1500 was about as low as you could go just for the unit itself. I spent somewhat more, and mine is flat black.

Without a blower a natural convection current will still flow into the bottom vent and out the top, but the heat will rise mostly straight up. With a blower the heat will come out more away from the fireplace and be better distributed. When I don't run my blower, the mantle and the surround get a lot warmer.

Generally the ductwork would be 4"-6" from what I recall and connect to knockouts in the sides, top, and/or rear of the outer shell of the fireplace, inside the wall. The ones in the top ("gravity vents") can be passive as long as the duct goes upwards. The ones in the side and back need an inline blower to move the air along.
If you look starting at page 16 of the BIS Ultima (broken link removed to http://www.fireplaceproducts.com/customerFiles/manuals/BIS-ULTIMA.pdf) you'll see what I'm talking about. I have a hookup to a side knockout that I ran to my central ductwork, but in my current configuration it doesn't pull enough heat from the fireplace for that to work. It does pull plenty to heat a room though; when I finish the basement I'll use it to heat that. The "official" ducting kits are really overpriced, though, and don't seem to be anything special.

 

[scfa99]

All duct work options/optional venting kits are listed in the fireplace manuals for each manufacturer. You must follow the instructions, materials to a T or you could void your warranty, not be up to code or worse. The duct work clearances and the pipe required and all the clearances are listed in the 7100 manual, i think its online at www.quadrafire.com.

ELK how'd i do?

 

[Dizzy8]

Well, I live in southern Indiana and find no dealers for the Quad or BIS Ultima within 50 miles. Rats. I did go fireplace shopping and got a quote for $5000 for a Model 44 Elite Fireplace Xtrordinair. Well, the price sure was Xtraordinair Also, a rough price of $2500 for a Napoleon NZ6000. That one scared me because although the salesman said it was high efficiency, the brochure didn't mention efficiency. . . . can't imagine it is too efficient if they didn't even mention it.

Does anyone have opinions on these two fireplaces or know any local dealers in Southern Indiana/ Northern Kentucky (Henderson area, not Louisville)?

 

[jtp10181]

Quad Dealer, next town over from Henderson

THE BACKYARD
5355 HIGHWAY 54
OWENSBORO, KY 42303
270-688-0038

 

[senorFrog]

I'm a little confused, is she looking for a "zero clearance fireplace" or a fireplace insert? Are they different?

Also, I thought all the threads I read here said it was damm near impossible to move warm air from a wood stove/fireplace insert to other rooms in the house using ducting.

For the original poster:

The viewing area on many wood stoves is great. Better in fact, than a fireplace (unless zero clearance fireplaces have them too) because in addition to the normal combustion, you have combustion from the secondary burn tubes, which gives a real nice effect. Check out this thread from The Perfect Picture for statrers...

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/3641/

Check this out as it may answer many of your questions...

(broken link removed to http://www.woodheat.org/technology/woodstoves.htm)

 

[Dizzy8]

I am the original poster, so I will try to clarify: I am looking for a fireplace in a new house that is to be constructed. I don't want an inefficient one like the one in my current house- masonary built into the house with most heat going up the chimney. We have an insert in our basement fireplace so that is what I was comparing what I want to. I am told that I should ask for a zero clearance fireplace to be framed around in my new house. And that if I get an EPA approved one, I should be looking at efficiencies of over 70%- better even than my current insert. So I won't be buying an insert- my fireplace will serve as one (if that makes sense).

 

[Gooserider]

I'm a little confused, is she looking for a "zero clearance fireplace" or a fireplace insert? Are they different?

Also, I thought all the threads I read here said it was damm near impossible to move warm air from a wood stove/fireplace insert to other rooms in the house using ducting.

For the original poster:

The viewing area on many wood stoves is great. Better in fact, than a fireplace (unless zero clearance fireplaces have them too) because in addition to the normal combustion, you have combustion from the secondary burn tubes, which gives a real nice effect. Check out this thread from The Perfect Picture for statrers...

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/3641/

Check this out as it may answer many of your questions...

(broken link removed to http://www.woodheat.org/technology/woodstoves.htm)

Yes SF, there is a difference...

An insert is essentially a specially designed woodstove that is designed to go into a pre-existing, probably non-EPA fireplace, in order to make it a more efficient, better heating unit.

A Zero-Clearance fireplace is a unit intended for mostly new construction or major remodels that don't have a fireplace but want one. They can be used instead of building a masonry fireplace. They are called Zero-Clearance because they are designed with much lower requirements for clearances to non-combustibles (walls) than masonry fireplaces are, some can literally be placed right against wood framing members, though most still require some amount of clearance. Cheap ZC units are mostly decorative, aren't EPA approved and will burn lots of wood without making much heat - no surprise. Lately however more and more EPA units are getting made, with all the same ecology and efficiency benefits of EPA wood-stoves, plus (in some cases) having additional ducting to make for better heat distribution, or even tieing into an HVAC system.... The downside of a ZC unit is that they are essentially permanent parts of the structure they are put into, and changing one out is a MAJOR project. Lots of tract houses were built with cheap ZC boxes a few years back, and now they are starting to deteriorate and leave their owners with huge bills to make them safe.

DizzyB, I would suggest trying to get the fireplace and chimney into a more central location, otherwise it sounds like you are on the right track. Another alternative that you MIGHT find worth looking at is the idea of getting a Masonry Heater - these are usually not suitable for existing construction, but can be very nice if properly located and designed in a new home. Their fans claim that they are highly efficient and powerful heating units, and it is also possible to build things into them like bake ovens for custom breadmaking and the like. Do a search on the forums here for lots of threads discussing them.

Gooserider

 

[Dizzy8]

Thank you, Gooserider, for that info! I didn't realize that ZC units were hard to change out. . . . or that you ever had to! How long can we expect one to last??
Also, I can certainly look at central locations for the fireplace. I could see putting it on the north side of the powder room- would look pretty there! (see layout in first post of this thread) But I know one salesman said that it is good to take outside air into the intake for their fireplace. Couldn't do that if I went to a central location. Any comments on that?
I have never heard of a Masonry Heater! Thank you- I will look into that!!

 

[elkimmeg]

outside air does not mean direct contact with an exterior wall it could be routed in the basement then up to the fireplace location

 

[fishboat]

Diz,

If you don't have a BIS dealer close by look around for a Lennox dealer. Lennox bought Security (BIS) a while back & market some of the BIS units under the "Montecito" line. Same EPA fireplace as the BIS, just a slightly different look.

 

[Gooserider]

Thank you, Gooserider, for that info! I didn't realize that ZC units were hard to change out. . . . or that you ever had to! How long can we expect one to last??
Also, I can certainly look at central locations for the fireplace. I could see putting it on the north side of the powder room- would look pretty there! (see layout in first post of this thread) But I know one salesman said that it is good to take outside air into the intake for their fireplace. Couldn't do that if I went to a central location. Any comments on that?
I have never heard of a Masonry Heater! Thank you- I will look into that!!

I'm not an expert on ZC's, just seen some of the comments here on the board. What I've seen suggests that there have been some improvments in materials, so it's hard to tell just how long a modern unit will last, and there are also lots of variable on things like what sort of use its given, the amount of maintainence, etc However the impression I've gathered is that the ZC's had their biggest surge in popularity in the large amounts of suburban housing that got run up after WWII, which would be late 40's to early 50's, and those units have been showing up as problems since the 90's which suggests about a 40 year life span....

As to the masonry units, the theory behind them is essentially that they are big massive masonry structures containing a high temperature firebox and a convoluted smoke path. In use one builds a short, high intensity fire once or twice a day, which warms the masonry structure, which functions as a resevoir and heats the house for the next several hours using radiant heat. Some designs supplement this by running a liquid heat exchanger through the masonry and using that to run radiant floor heating systems, or doing something similar with their HVAC system.

The basic idea has been used in Northern Europe and Russia for centuries, but isn't well known in the US. Many of the US sources use european sourced parts, and / or are run by europeans that learned how over there before coming to the US to start their own businesses here.

However one key aspect of a masonry heater is that it needs to be centrally located. What occurs to me looking at your floor plan is possibly to build one where that kitchen island setup appears to be now. You could put the firebox facing the living area so people could see the fire, and have an oven built into the kitchen side...

Gooserider

 

[Dizzy8]

Have I told all the people on this site how wonderful you are????
Found two dealers nearby that sell Lennox and Heat N Glo. One sells Quad and RSF also.
The one dealer recommended the Lennox Montecito and the other recommended the RSF Opel. But boy is the RSF Delta pretty! Love the angles in the front Not sure if it is $1000 pretty (that is how much over the Opel he told me it was), but it sure is nice!!
Thank you for all your advice in my shopping- I will keep reading!!