Reducing draft for a Woodstock progress hybrid

[Srichards]

Hi all,
I have a new progress hybrid and a 32’ chimney with a new 31’ smooth wall insulated steel liner.
All open (combusted and air intake) The draft measures in at - 0.16.
I realized I had an issue immediately because my wood to coal time is 3 hours.
The ‘burn time’on this stove should be 12-14+ hours (understanding that this is wood to coal burn out)
I have tried:
Key damper, reduction at cap from 6” to 5”, and reducing primary air intake by about 50% by using furnace tape all with little to no improvement. There are no leaks in the stove.
On a good day with air intake lever fully closed and key damper fully closed I’m getting about 2 hours at 400- 500 degrees, 1 hour at about 300 and a few hours at 200 or less degrees (coals). My draft fully closed is about -0.13. I burn fully seasoned ash,maple, cherry, yellow birch, and oak.
I recently moved which is why I got the stove and new liner install. Prior to moving I had the Woodstock fireview and loved it. I had 5-6 hours at 4-500 degree burns and hours more at 300 degrees. very efficient burns. Of course I had a 23 foot chimney with a ceramic liner and perfect draft.
Currently I’m loading the stove 4-5 times per day, using way too much wood for such an efficient stove.
The Woodstock Sospstone Company has been great helping me troubleshoot but I’m curious to hear your thoughts:
1.Has anyone experienced draft issues on a this stove or another cat stove where the key damper isn’t helping and if so were you able to find a solution?
2.what do other progress hybrid owners get for burn time, specifically how many hours at 500, 400, 300 etc. I have found Burn times are generally not well defined with temperature readings- just wood to coal burn out advertised times of 12-14+ hours.

Thanks, eager to hear what other progress hybrid owners have experienced.

 

[bholler]

Hi all,
I have a new progress hybrid and a 32’ chimney with a new 31’ smooth wall insulated steel liner.
All open (combusted and air intake) The draft measures in at - 0.16.
I realized I had an issue immediately because my wood to coal time is 3 hours.
The ‘burn time’on this stove should be 12-14+ hours (understanding that this is wood to coal burn out)
I have tried:
Key damper, reduction at cap from 6” to 5”, and reducing primary air intake using by about 50% by furnace all with little to improvement. There are no leaks in the stove.
On a good day with air intake lever fully closed and key damper fully closed I’m getting about 2 hours at 400- 500 degrees, 1 hour at about 300 and a few hours at 200 or less degrees (coals). My draft fully closed is about -0.13. I burn fully seasoned ash,maple, cherry, yellow birch, and oak.
I recently moved which is why I got the stove and new liner install. Prior to moving I had the Woodstock fireview and loved it. I had 5-6 hours at 4-500 degree burns and hours more at 300 degrees. very efficient burns. Of course I had a 23 foot chimney with a ceramic liner and perfect draft.
Currently I’m loading the stove 4-5 times per day, using way too much wood for such an efficient stove.
The Woodstock Sospstone Company has been great helping me troubleshoot but I’m curious to hear your thoughts:
1.Has anyone experienced draft issues on a this stove or another cat stove where the key damper isn’t helping and if so were you able to find a solution?
2.what do other progress hybrid owners get for burn time, specifically how many hours at 500, 400, 300 etc. I have found Burn times are generally not well defined with temperature readings- just wood to coal burn out advertised times of 12-14+ hours.

Thanks, eager to hear what other progress hybrid owners have experienced.

Add a second damper

 

[Woody Stover]

Did Woodstock offer suggestions on what to do?

 

[Srichards]

Did Woodstock offer suggestions on what to do?

They suggested the key damper. They were then nice enough to lend me a draft meter so I can provide them with readings

 

[weatherguy]

I'm getting 10-12 hours with mine and I could use a damper, what reading are we supposed to have on the meter?

 

[wooduser]

They suggested the key damper. They were then nice enough to lend me a draft meter so I can provide them with readings

Woo hoo! A manufacturer that wants to know the draft! Next thing you know, they'll start telling customers what the acceptable range for the draft is!

 

[Srichards]

I'm getting 10-12 hours with mine and I could use a damper, what reading are we supposed to have on the meter?

Normal readings should be -.03 -.05 according to Woodstock co.
What stovetop temps are you seeing during that 10-12 hour time? 500 for 3 hours, 400 for 3 hours, 200 for 3 etc? I’m always unsure what people consider burn time. Down to coals or coals gone?

 

[Srichards]

Woo hoo! A manufacturer that wants to know the draft! Next thing you know, they'll start telling customers what the acceptable range for the draft is!

They did! -.03 to -.05

 

[bholler]

Woo hoo! A manufacturer that wants to know the draft! Next thing you know, they'll start telling customers what the acceptable range for the draft is!

Most already have that info available to customers. I dont know where you get the idea manufacturers dont want to know the draft.

 

[weatherguy]

Normal readings should be -.03 -.05 according to Woodstock co.
What stovetop temps are you seeing during that 10-12 hour time? 500 for 3 hours, 400 for 3 hours, 200 for 3 etc? I’m always unsure what people consider burn time. Down to coals or coals gone?

Depends on the weather but I'll have it above 500 for about 6 hours then down to about 350 towards the end. I dont really pay attention but I'll try the next few days to keep a closer eye on it.

 

[Srichards]

Depends on the weather but I'll have it above 500 for about 6 hours then down to about 350 towards the end. I dont really pay attention but I'll try the next few days to keep a closer eye on it.

Thanks, I’d be very happy with 500 for 6 hours!

 

[Woody Stover]

unsure what people consider burn time. Down to coals or coals gone?

For me, if the stove top is still above 250, producing a fair amount of heat, it's still part of the burn. Some people won't be able to hold room temp with that stove top temp, but I can if outdoor temps are average. Nasty single-digits and wind, I'm loading when I can no longer hold 300+ on the stove top.

 

[wooduser]

<<
↑
Woo hoo! A manufacturer that wants to know the draft! Next thing you know, they'll start telling customers what the acceptable range for the draft is!
Most already have that info available to customers. I dont know where you get the idea manufacturers dont want to know the draft.

Great! Yet what I see in these threads is resistance to doing such measurements.

Especially where customers are unhappy with stove performance, I would think that measuring draft and comparing it with the manufacturer's suggested draft would be a good practice.

 

[bholler]

<<
↑
Woo hoo! A manufacturer that wants to know the draft! Next thing you know, they'll start telling customers what the acceptable range for the draft is!
Most already have that info available to customers. I dont know where you get the idea manufacturers dont want to know the draft.

Great! Yet what I see in these threads is resistance to doing such measurements.

Especially where customers are unhappy with stove performance, I would think that measuring draft and comparing it with the manufacturer's suggested draft would be a good practice.

No, you see resistance to using an expensive peice of equipment to give you lots of useless data. Draft is a very useful data point which is easily measured with cheap equipment.

 

[SpaceBus]

No you see resistance to using an expensive peice of equipment to give you lots of useless data. Draft is a very useful data point which is easily measured with cheap equipment.

Other than an expensive magnehelic gauge, what can you use?

 

[bholler]

Other than an expensive magnehelic gauge, what can you use?

A simple manometer or draft gauge. They can be had for under $100. The poster i was responding to keeps pushing the idea that those of us working in the feild should be using combustion analyzers which are in the $2000 range and will give us some usefull info but allot of info that would be completly pointless to us working on natural draft stoves. All we really need is a draft gauge a moisture meter and some way to measure temps.

 

[saydinli]

Woo hoo! A manufacturer that wants to know the draft! Next thing you know, they'll start telling customers what the acceptable range for the draft is!

Not sure why this is a big surprise to you all of a sudden. I already explained in another thread last week that you were part of, that the only measurement Pacific Energy was interested in with my excessive draft issue was the reading from the Manometer.

 

[trguitar]

It depends on the outside temp also, and the type of wood being burned. My chimney is about 20' with no draft mods. It also depends on how well your house is insulated. This is my recipe for keeping my 2400 sf house at 70.

For example, if it is above 32 I can fill up the stove with white pine. I completely shut it down at 400, and it will burn for 10-12 hours. All coals is probably at the 6 hour mark, although I have never really measured it. When I reload the stovetop is around 250.

If it is between 20 and 32, I can fill up the stove with red maple and get the same burn as above.

If it is between 10 and 20, I can fill up the stove with red oak (or black locust) and get the same burn as above.

If it is below 10 degrees I have to push the stove a little harder and can't shut it down completely.

 

[wooduser]

A simple manometer or draft gauge. They can be had for under $100. The poster i was responding to keeps pushing the idea that those of us working in the feild should be using combustion analyzers which are in the $2000 range and will give us some usefull info but allot of info that would be completly pointless to us working on natural draft stoves. All we really need is a draft gauge a moisture meter and some way to measure temps.

All right, that's two elements of combustion analysis you find uses for. And of course to use them you are acknowledging that they are useful despite the fact that wood stoves vary widely in how they burn over wood burning cycles. Just requires some judgement and experience to use them intelligently, I suppose.

And I'm not saying you guys SHOULD be using combustion analyzers, and asking why you don't. Cost is a good reason.

Still, I'm looking for someone who has decided to spend the money and gain the experience of using a combustion analyzer in the course of doing repairs and maintenance on gravity vented wood stoves and see what they have to say about it. Can't really claim it's of no use when you haven't given it a fair trial, can you?

 

[lsucet]

All right, that's two elements of combustion analysis you find uses for. And of course to use them you are acknowledging that they are useful despite the fact that wood stoves vary widely in how they burn over wood burning cycles. Just requires some judgement and experience to use them intelligently, I suppose.

And I'm not saying you guys SHOULD be using combustion analyzers, and asking why you don't. Cost is a good reason.

Still, I'm looking for someone who has decided to spend the money and gain the experience of using a combustion analyzer in the course of doing repairs and maintenance on gravity vented wood stoves and see what they have to say about it. Can't really claim it's of no use when you haven't given it a fair trial, can you?

Good luck finding that. The amount of wood gasses is not just at different points of the burn cycle. It also differ base on wood species, how you load. amount, the way air is traveling thru, etc. Now, if we can separate the fire box from combustion chamber and control the amount of gasses and air plus has a preset ratio needed for different temperature, maybe and for sure a analyzer will be a good tool in case of malfunction. But at that point is not better go into if inductive draft? killing the whole purpose of burning wood? . sorry i am going to stop drinking now.

 

[bholler]

All right, that's two elements of combustion analysis you find uses for. And of course to use them you are acknowledging that they are useful despite the fact that wood stoves vary widely in how they burn over wood burning cycles. Just requires some judgement and experience to use them intelligently, I suppose.

And I'm not saying you guys SHOULD be using combustion analyzers, and asking why you don't. Cost is a good reason.

Still, I'm looking for someone who has decided to spend the money and gain the experience of using a combustion analyzer in the course of doing repairs and maintenance on gravity vented wood stoves and see what they have to say about it. Can't really claim it's of no use when you haven't given it a fair trial, can you?

Ok fist off it is not gravity vented. We dont use them in the feild because we have no way to adjust any of the parameters they would tell us. We can on the other hand adjust draft fuel quality and temps. That is why we measure those things.

 

[begreen]

Still, I'm looking for someone who has decided to spend the money and gain the experience of using a combustion analyzer in the course of doing repairs and maintenance on gravity vented wood stoves and see what they have to say about it. Can't really claim it's of no use when you haven't given it a fair trial, can you?

No one said it is of no use, but no one here except maybe Corey is engineering and designing stoves. Changing the combustion performance of a stove invalidates the EPA testing and potentially its UL certification. It's costly and one needs to know what one is doing. This is not something that is practiced in the home by an average stove installer or chimney sweep, but more something done in the lab under tightly controlled conditions.

 

[wooduser]

No one said it is of no use, but no one here except maybe Corey is engineering and designing stoves. Changing the combustion performance of a stove invalidates the EPA testing and potentially its UL certification. It's costly and one needs to know what one is doing. This is not something that is practiced in the home, but more in the lab under tightly controlled circumstances.

Yet, you find lots of uses for measuring stove and stack temperatures and will measure draft using instruments when there is reason to do so. Those are both elements of combustion analysis, and both would vary in results depending on species of wood being burned, how the stove is operated, where you are in the burning cycle and so on.

It seems to me that measuring the level of oxygen and carbon monoxide in flue gasses, for example, would provide useful information on how complete combustion is in a stove. At least for measuring oxygen levels, there are ways of doing that at moderate cost. I have a carbon monoxide meter I used during my days as a gas appliance repairman, but that limits out at 2,000 ppm, probably too low to be especially useful for measuring problem situations in wood stoves. But there is such equipment good to levels of 40,000 ppm ---4% carbon monoxide gas.

I've used meters that measure the level of explosive gas in a sample provided. I used that equipment for inspecting for underground gas leaks. IAs I think about it, it might be useful for detecting levels of carbon monoxide (an explosive gas) below at at the lower explosive limit of carbon monoxide). That might be a useful instrument for measuring CO in a wood stove flue gas sample ----I'll have to investigate that further.

And you don't necessarily need to modify a stove to change the combustion going on in a stove. Defects in the stove or repairs needed in the stove might cause problems with combustion, the fuel being used, the way the stove is operated and the venting system can all affect combustion. At present, you guys are measuring stove temperature and draft to help identify issues like this that need attention. I merely suggest that perhaps additional methods of combustion analysis might prove to be useful in the same way if they were tried.

I'm interested in finding the people who have tried out such equipment and perhaps use it when there is good reason to do so. Or perhaps they have tried it and found it of no utility, as suggested by those on this board. But you really can't have an authoritative opinion on the subject if you've never tried it,.

 

[begreen]

This keeps getting rehashed. To put it simply a gas or oil appliance is not like a wood fired stove because there is not a known consistent fuel source.

But you really can't have an authoritative opinion on the subject if you've never tried it,.

I have an authoritative opinion that this obsession with the topic is hijacking multiple threads. Some of us have read enough literature and visited testing labs to know that with all the variables in wood burning (and not present with gas testing) that this is not trivial. Now let the thread return to its original topic.

 

[Woody Stover]

let the thread return to its original topic.

Add a second damper

As far as I can see this thread is dead until the OP posts the results of two dampers. Or he plugs some of the leaks of the standard key damper, if that's what he has..