Removed masonry over a fireplace opening must I replace that?

[UnderdogPS]

We wanted to update the look of our masonry fireplace and decided to remove all the red brick that surrounded the fireplace opening. This was a single course on either side and 3 courses supported by a lentil that is 8" over the fireplace opening. I'm having trouble interpreting the code as to weather or not I need to replace the 8" of masonry over the opening instead of just keeping it open and using a stone veneer along the outside and top of the current opening.

There is concrete block for 12" on either side of the fireplace opening and continues the entire way up the wall with drywall over it past the combustible barrier defined by the code. On the inside front of the fireplace, the damper is 8" from the top of the fireplace opening, but the back is almost even with the fireplace opening if I consider vertical distance. This is my hang up with the code that states: 1001.7.1 Damper. Masonry fireplaces shall be equipped with a ferrous metal damper located at least 8 inches (203 mm) above the top of the fireplace opening. Dampers shall be installed in the fireplace or the chimney venting the fireplace, and shall be operable from the room containing the fireplace.

Then I read this section and am unsure if that is required or only if I use masonry over the fireplace that it needs to be this way.: 1001.7 Lintel and throat. Masonry over a fireplace opening shall be supported by a lintel of noncombustible material. The minimum required bearing length on each end of the fireplace opening shall be 4 inches (102 mm). The fireplace throat or damper shall be located a minimum of 8 inches (203 mm) above the lintel.

 

[HomeinPA]

We wanted to update the look of our masonry fireplace and decided to remove all the red brick that surrounded the fireplace opening. This was a single course on either side and 3 courses supported by a lentil that is 8" over the fireplace opening. I'm having trouble interpreting the code as to weather or not I need to replace the 8" of masonry over the opening instead of just keeping it open and using a stone veneer along the outside and top of the current opening.

There is concrete block for 12" on either side of the fireplace opening and continues the entire way up the wall with drywall over it past the combustible barrier defined by the code. On the inside front of the fireplace, the damper is 8" from the top of the fireplace opening, but the back is almost even with the fireplace opening if I consider vertical distance. This is my hang up with the code that states: 1001.7.1 Damper. Masonry fireplaces shall be equipped with a ferrous metal damper located at least 8 inches (203 mm) above the top of the fireplace opening. Dampers shall be installed in the fireplace or the chimney venting the fireplace, and shall be operable from the room containing the fireplace.

Then I read this section and am unsure if that is required or only if I use masonry over the fireplace that it needs to be this way.: 1001.7 Lintel and throat. Masonry over a fireplace opening shall be supported by a lintel of noncombustible material. The minimum required bearing length on each end of the fireplace opening shall be 4 inches (102 mm). The fireplace throat or damper shall be located a minimum of 8 inches (203 mm) above the lintel.

Pictures?

 

[UnderdogPS]

A picture is hard to do to explain, so I drew it out. This is a cross section at the center of the fireplace opening. We removed all the red brick (the red part). As you can see the bottom of the damper is nearly vertically even with the fireplace opening, but the top of the damper is 8" away from the top of the opening. This is the interpretation I am trying ot understand, do I need to recreate the 8" from the brick I removed or does it meet code without the red brick?

One last point is that the plane of the house is even with the firebox, so the red brick is inside the plane of the house while the firebrick is outside the plane of the house if that matters.

 

[begreen]

When you removed the red brick it sounds like you also removed the lintel. Is that correct or is it still in place? If you removed the lintel, what is providing support for the block or brick above the fireplace opening? What is the reason for wanting to increase the opening size from the original 30" to 38"?

Can you provide a picture of the fireplace in its current state? Your plan might work, but the fireplace may also spill more smoke into the room.

 

[kennyp2339]

I think what BG is trying to say is that, the 8" w/ steel lintel is part of the basic fireplace physics, smoke rises from the burning wood, then hits the steel / cast damper and a rolling turbulence takes place, the 8" of brick helps contain the rolling smoke / heat so it gets sucked up the chimney and not into the living space.

 

[UnderdogPS]

So I removed a lintel (the one that supported the 3 courses of the red bricks in place), but the lintel for the firebrick remains (blue in the picture). My next question once I understood if I need to rebuild that 8" section is if I can cut in another lintel into the firebrick so all I need to use is a veneer for aesthetics that will be even with the rest of the front or if I need to basically replicate what was there with other brick.

 

[bholler]

So I removed a lintel (the one that supported the 3 courses of the red bricks in place), but the lintel for the firebrick remains (blue in the picture). My next question once I understood if I need to rebuild that 8" section is if I can cut in another lintel into the firebrick so all I need to use is a veneer for aesthetics that will be even with the rest of the front or if I need to basically replicate what was there with other brick.

You need a drop below the damper or you will have smoke rolling out. Also by increasing your firebox by that ammount you may be out of proportion with the liner size which will also cause smoking

 

[HomeinPA]

By picture I meant photograph. But you definitely get an A for drawing!

What I'm seeing is that you removed the face and the hearth extension. At least you removed the brick on the hearth extension. There should still be a cement pad extending from the front of the firebox into the room at least 16+ inches the entire width of the fireplace. If that isn't there you need that first. That's a potential project in itself.

You're going to need a face on the fireplace and based on the code you've quoted then no, you shouldn't be raising the opening above where it is. That is, if I'm interpreting your drawing and the code correctly, you shouldn't raise it.

 

[begreen]

So I removed a lintel (the one that supported the 3 courses of the red bricks in place), but the lintel for the firebrick remains (blue in the picture). My next question once I understood if I need to rebuild that 8" section is if I can cut in another lintel into the firebrick so all I need to use is a veneer for aesthetics that will be even with the rest of the front or if I need to basically replicate what was there with other brick.

For just the stove facade I think an angle iron frame for the fireplace opening would suffice. It could either have side legs that went down to the hearth for support (that is what we had on our fireplace) or if the stone facade is deep enough then the lintel could rest on the side stones at the top of fireplace opening.

 

[UnderdogPS]

For just the stove facade I think an angle iron frame for the fireplace opening would suffice. It could either have side legs that went down to the hearth for support (that is what we had on our fireplace) or if the stone facade is deep enough then the lintel could rest on the side stones at the top of fireplace opening.

Thank you... Something like this I assume referring to the angle iron frame.

 

[begreen]

Yes, though I have also seen it reversed so that the vertical flat face was hidden and just the thin horizontal edge showed in front.

 

[bholler]

Thank you... Something like this I assume referring to the angle iron frame.

View attachment 222161

Are you planning on using this as an open fireplace? Or are you putting a stove or insert in there

 

[HomeinPA]

Thank you... Something like this I assume referring to the angle iron frame.

View attachment 222161

That looks like wood, not steel.

 

[bholler]

That looks like wood, not steel.

No it is steel

 

[UnderdogPS]

Are you planning on using this as an open fireplace? Or are you putting a stove or insert in there

There is no insert... our fireplace looks just like the one in the picture.

 

[bholler]

There is no insert... our fireplace looks just like the one in the picture.

So that is not your fireplace? A pic of your fireplace would really help us help you.

 

[HomeinPA]

There is no insert... our fireplace looks just like the one in the picture.

Are pictures of the actual fireplace we've been talking about...and asking for, not possible?? I don't get it.

 

[begreen]

No it is steel

Yes, it looks like rectangular stock, not angle iron.

 

[bholler]

Yes, it looks like rectangular stock, not angle iron.

Yeah

 

[HomeinPA]

No it is steel

Ok, I guess if I look hard enough it doesn't look like a weathered 2x4. But why would that be there? There is already a lintel in place on that particular fireplace..... I guess that's a moot point since we don't know who's fireplace that is.

Never mind. Carry on.

 

[UnderdogPS]

Hi all... thanks for all your advice here. I was able to get to the property last night and took some pictures. Here are the 2 pics of the current state (with the removed red brick facade that overhung the opening of the fireplace by 8" with a self supporting lentil). My plan is in the 3rd pic. I plan to install the angle iron frame as previously recommended. The angle iron legs I will fasten into the side of the fireplace opening just to ensure they are secured. Then I will place a piece of angle iron on top of that and install fireplace brick with fireplace mortar on the top angle iron to regain that 8" drop the previous facade provided. This is important to keep the added 8" flush with the fireplace opening so when I apply the stone veneer i don't have to build anything out. Once this is done, i will cut away the drywall you see in the pic and apply the stone veneer and then a mantle above.

 

[kennyp2339]

I see the plan... before you lay the top front course or put the side pillars in, take some measurements and see what's available in surrounds (glass doors or the metal mesh for ember protection) design the final opening around that so you can get generic doors later on rather then expensive custom doors.

 

[HomeinPA]

Hi all... thanks for all your advice here. I was able to get to the property last night and took some pictures. Here are the 2 pics of the current state (with the removed red brick facade that overhung the opening of the fireplace by 8" with a self supporting lentil). My plan is in the 3rd pic. I plan to install the angle iron frame as previously recommended. The angle iron legs I will fasten into the side of the fireplace opening just to ensure they are secured. Then I will place a piece of angle iron on top of that and install fireplace brick with fireplace mortar on the top angle iron to regain that 8" drop the previous facade provided. This is important to keep the added 8" flush with the fireplace opening so when I apply the stone veneer i don't have to build anything out. Once this is done, i will cut away the drywall you see in the pic and apply the stone veneer and then a mantle above.

Just a thought here but....Instead of steel tube on the sides why don't you just rebuild what you had originally and set it flush with the front of the fireplace? That seems to be basically what you're doing isn't it? You could reuse the lintel from the original face. The masonry doesn't appear to be painted so the mortar would stick and it's a lot less expensive. Also, when you go to put your stone(?) veneer face on it will not adhere to the steel tube at all which could be a problem.

Question though...Is the white area a wooden mantel? If so you may want to check your clearances there. Those would be based on your finished opening of the firebox. One pic looks really close and the other...can't tell. If it is wood you may consider removing it and putting your face all the way out and up and maybe just running mantel across the top.

 

[UnderdogPS]

Thanks for the continued advice; it's much appreciated. I have an existing door that is still in good shape and is why I don't want to change the dimensions of the width of the fireplace. With the info about needing to replace the 8" clearance on the top, there is no need to buy new doors, and can reuse them if I am smart about how I construct it.

@HomeinPA I plan to use angle iron and not the tube with the long edge toward the back of the fireplace for the reason you state about it not sticking to the veneer. With the angle front to back in the firebox at around 30 degrees, if I place the long part of the angel iron toward the back of the fireplace, the top angle will sit nicely on top and won't interfere with installing the old doors.

The white part was where the old mantle was. Remember there was a full section of red brick on either side of the opening and 1 course of solider stacked with 2 more courses on the top. They were all to code for clearances. We are not planning on reusing that mantle, instead just going with a simple mantle at the very top of where you see white on the pictures.

 

[THam]

Underdog, I am going through the same remodel as you. Curious as to how you proceeded. Do you think it is possible to cut slots into the firebox brick to insert the lintel then brick up? Also what kind of brick should be used?

Thanks!