Renovating an 1810 Home, what's the most cost efficient heating system?

[ckellogg17]

So my lady and I purchased our first home and we're already looking at upgrading stuff.

Details:
Built: 1810 timberframe
1710 sq ft 2 stories
9 acres of wooded land, plus parents have a lot of land with trees that could be replaced
37 year old forced air oil furnace in basement with nice looking metal ducting throughout house
full 2 story height brick chimney with new stainless insert
fireplace in the living room with a blower that goes to the basement
secondary brick chimney with new stainless insert on opposite side of house
full height wet basement with narrow staircase in the living room to get down
New metal roof, siding and insulation within last 5 years
Lots of insulation in the attic.
electric water heater

So obviously the oil furnace needs to be replaced. The question is, with what.

First option? Yukon
I've been looking at the yukon eagle husky oil and wood furnace for a couple reasons. It's been around for 37 years and has been fairly reliable for people. It lights the wood using the oil burner. It can use the existing metal ducting. It can also be used out the same chimney. It can be dissassembled to fit into the basement downstairs. It has a water heater add on and can control an a/c unit.
Downfalls, it's a 37 year old design and isn't as efficient as a water boiler furnace from say econoburn.
It's about $5,500 shipped to my door, more expensive than just getting an "efficient" oil furnace.
I'm not sure if it's more or less money to purchase an entire indoor water boiler furnace though. I'm guessing less.

Second option? Kuuma
Only problem with the kuuma is that i want a secondary heating source and the kuuma requires its own chimney. If I got an oil furnace that would need its own chimney. The fireplace in the living room has its own chimney but that only goes to the 1st floor.

third option? water boiler
i don't know much about the cost of these. I'd want an indoor one like the econoburn i guess? But once again, i wouldn't be able to use an oil furnace as a backup. I'd have to use electric, and that's super expensive.


So what do you guys think? What's the most cost efficient way of heating a home using wood/oil/electric. (gas isn't available)

 

[DoubleB]

Welcome to hearth @ckellogg17 ! And congratulations on your first home. Those are exciting times.

I'm sure someone here can help more than I can. But can you clarify why the oil furnace has to go? What is your main objective? To reduce heating costs? Totally eliminate heating costs? To minimize initial installation costs? Be energy self-reliant? Give yourself a satisfying hobby of wood heating?

Different people are motivated by different ones of those questions, and they affect how you'll make your choice and the advice people here might give. For example, it sounds like an outdoor boiler might be an option due to your chimney count, but only if you don't mind a higher installation cost and really really like making a lot of firewood.

When we bought our first home, I knew I wanted wood heat, but it took me a while to find the best solution for my needs, and I'm glad I spend 2 years thinking/researching because I went all over the map. During that time, the oil furnace worked fine. And better, I was able to start processing firewood so it could have time to dry and be ready for the unit I finally bought which requires really dry wood. So maybe you want to just start working on firewood and give yourself time to make the right choice.

 

[DoubleB]

gas isn't available

And, does this also mean no LP? If you can get your hands on LP, then side vent an LP backup furnace out the side of your basement, and your chimney problem goes away. A separate LP furnace and wood furnace is probably better than a combo unit, both from efficiency, plus you have more choices, and can replace either one when necessary at less cost.

 

[velvetfoot]

Here're my opinions, for what they're worth.

Before you make any big moves, live with the house a little. It sounds like the previous owner had his sh** together.
1710 ft2 is not huge. What is the wall insulation? Floor insulation? Air sealing is good?
I'd consider putting as big a wood insert, hearth heater, stove or whatever, as you can for the fireplace in the living room; it'd be cozy, efficient, and nice to look at.
Why did he have the fireplace blowing air into the basement, anyway? I'd have the new insert or whatever blow air into the living area.
That narrow staircase to the basement doesn't sound so inviting for feeding it. Going up and down the stairs sounds like somewhat of a drag, and then if you throw in getting all the winter's wood into the basement...
I'd get the biggest and nicest looking insert I could afford, a replacement oil fired furnace, evaluate insulation and air sealing, look into zoning the hot air system (I'm no expert on that, but my friend has a fancy Carrier Infinity system with like 5 zones and it works great-it;s fancy though and gas/heat pump, so I don't know if that's for an oiler), keep the electric hot water heater.
If you had money or inclination, maybe you could mess around with a heat pump; you'd get air conditioning out of it, but not sure if you'd qualify for a Grid rebate,

 

[NateB]

Here're my opinions, for what they're worth.

Before you make any big moves, live with the house a little. It sounds like the previous owner had his sh** together.
1710 ft2 is not huge. What is the wall insulation? Floor insulation? Air sealing is good?
I'd consider putting as big a wood insert, hearth heater, stove or whatever, as you can for the fireplace in the living room; it'd be cozy, efficient, and nice to look at.
Why did he have the fireplace blowing air into the basement, anyway? I'd have the new insert or whatever blow air into the living area.
That narrow staircase to the basement doesn't sound so inviting for feeding it. Going up and down the stairs sounds like somewhat of a drag, and then if you throw in getting all the winter's wood into the basement...
I'd get the biggest and nicest looking insert I could afford, a replacement oil fired furnace, evaluate insulation and air sealing, look into zoning the hot air system (I'm no expert on that, but my friend has a fancy Carrier Infinity system with like 5 zones and it works great-it;s fancy though and gas/heat pump, so I don't know if that's for an oiler), keep the electric hot water heater.
If you had money or inclination, maybe you could mess around with a heat pump; you'd get air conditioning out of it, but not sure if you'd qualify for a Grid rebate,

I agree with velvet.

The wood insert is your second heat source. I would wait until you start thinking you need to build garage, and plan to put your wood boiler in there.

 

[sportbikerider78]

I'm in CNY as well. I'd live with the house a winter and see how it goes. Oil isn't that expensive right now, and if you needed a new furnace mid-winter, it can be done. Many groups are in and out in one day.

 

[Nofossil]

Good advice here. I'll add this: If the oil furnace truly has to be replaced now, look at a direct vent unit, even if that means adding a ductwork heat exchanger. You'll need a backup heat source in any event, and heating water rather than air starts giving you options for domestic hot water and other things.

I don't know what 'wet basement' means in this case, but given the staircase description I think planning a boiler room outside or off of a future garage might be a great future plan. Buy yourself some time to get a better idea of heat load, and think about heat storage options, radiant heat possibilities (floor, wall panels, etc.)

Finally, the insert idea is great. Heat and coziness is hard to argue with.

 

[VAfarmer38]

Our house was built in the 1890's. I cannot stress the importance of insulating regardless of which system you decided to go with which it seems you have taken care of. Our house is roughly 3,100 sq ft and we got a Heatmaster MF5000. It does the job but wishing we had gotten the 10000 size unit instead. On cold, windy days the unit does its best to heat the house but it can be a struggle. Always get something bigger than what you think you need. We have a woodstove in out den area and a gas unit upstairs to supplement the boiler for those bitter cold nights. Good luck. Don't go cheap on a good chainsaw and wood splitter either.

 

[Highbeam]

1710 SF is pretty small, same as I have. Wood furnaces are generally very high output.

Sounds like a small footprint, two story, house above an unfinished basement.

Put a good stove or insert (yuk) on the main floor and you might be done. That's all I need to heat a poorly built house well into the single digits. with wind.

 

[velvetfoot]

or insert (yuk)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Then again, maybe floor space is at a premium since this is the living room of a 1700 ft2 house.

 

[Highbeam]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Then again, maybe floor space is at a premium since this is the living room of a 1700 ft2 house.

I dislike inserts because of low performance. They look fine and yes can save some floorspace. I live in less than 1700 SF so I could understand wanting to keep a room open.

 

[velvetfoot]

I would've gotten a stove for our place, but my wife insisted, and in retrospect, I think she was right. A stove would've been intrusive in the spot it would have occupied in the living room.

 

[ckellogg17]

But can you clarify why the oil furnace has to go?
37 year old oil furnace is pretty far past its use.

What is your main objective?
To reduce heating costs. I can do the installations myself and my cousins husband is an hvac guy along with my dad, so they can double check my work.

Be energy self-reliant?
Some day! I'm looking into solar as well, there's a 4000sqft shop there with plenty of roof space for panels.

Give yourself a satisfying hobby of wood heating?
I'm always looking for more hobbies to take up my time. Apparently building racecars, carpentry, cooking, rc cars, sports, and countless other hobbies isn't enough besides having a lady to make happy!




anyways, an insert isn't my style, that's more modern. This home is very rustic, and i'd like to keep it that way. There's already a really nice fireplace in the living room (the one that has a blower going into the basement). They don't have natural gas lines out that way. I could get LP but i'm really opposed to the giant eye sore of a tank outside the home (there's already a 40g one for the stove). The reason I was planning on getting one now, is that yukon's prices are going up next year with the new epa compliant systems, plus they'll be less efficient. So it'd be in my best interest to get one now and be grand-fathered in.

Reason why i'm planning on doing this all soon, is that we're building the price of the replacement heating system into the mortgage. If I wait, i'll have to save up the cash for it... or take out a loan, which i don't want to do.

It's funny you guys say that 1710sqft is small, i grew up in a 1500 sqft home and i thought it was fairly average sized.

I'm thinking long term. Put a lot of money in now and get my return investment over the long haul. That being said, I don't want to do an outdoor boiler system, they're a lot of money for less efficiency than an indoor system.

Wet basement is an unfinished basement that isn't fully sealed, so it can get wet down there.

I've heard that subfloor heating is a very good way to evenly disperse heat, i need to look into those. We plan on doing the floors in the future, so if I got an indoor boiler system that could be incorporated in in the future.

Regarding the insulation in the home, the floors have no insulation. They're all open beam style. The walls are pretty well sealed. Relatively new windows, a lot of insulation in the roof. I can't say what type of insulation is in the walls, but its all tyvex sealed with board and batten siding.

 

[maple1]

The reason I was planning on getting one now, is that yukon's prices are going up next year with the new epa compliant systems, plus they'll be less efficient.

Can you elaborate on that? The less efficient part?

 

[DoubleB]

Reason why i'm planning on doing this all soon, is that we're building the price of the replacement heating system into the mortgage.

I don't know how that works, but do you have to spec out the whole system to roll the price into the mortgage? Or can you just make an estimate and get enough money to give you good options? Your call, but you are asking about a wide range of options to sift through, are trying to rush a decision, and are expecting to be happy with it for the long haul. Not to mention everything else you're doing in the next couple weeks to get ready for your new house. Hopefully you can swing all that, but I'd really try to find a way to buy myself some time to be sure I'm making the right decision.

 

[ckellogg17]

The reason I was planning on getting one now, is that yukon's prices are going up next year with the new epa compliant systems, plus they'll be less efficient.

Can you elaborate on that? The less efficient part?

I emailed yukon and asked them about the new epa compliance coming up. this is what they wrote to me.

"
Cory,
Realistically we intend on getting the unit in for testing again later this month. The units are borderline as is with no changes made to them. The units we have now are tried and true since 1972 but we wont know till consumers use the new models how they will perform with burn times etc. The addition of more secondary air over the top of the fire is what we have seen to make them more “epa friendly” but it is a sacrifice of burn times on a load of wood. The new models would not be available till spring of 2017.
If it was my decision id go with the one that has proven safe, efficient and been manufactured for over 40 years.
You will be grandfathered in when the rule goes into effect in may. "


So according to that, you'll be burning more wood, so less efficient in time per load and i bet the temps going out the exhaust pipe will increase.

I don't know how that works, but do you have to spec out the whole system to roll the price into the mortgage? Or can you just make an estimate and get enough money to give you good options? Your call, but you are asking about a wide range of options to sift through, are trying to rush a decision, and are expecting to be happy with it for the long haul. Not to mention everything else you're doing in the next couple weeks to get ready for your new house. Hopefully you can swing all that, but I'd really try to find a way to buy myself some time to be sure I'm making the right decision.

I'm doing a usda loan. So the house purchase price will be around 130k. If the appraised value of the home is 140k, i can take out up to 140k, so i can take up to 10k of cash to throw at repairs. 10k over 30 years is a whopping 40$ extra per month, plus only 3.5% interest rate, so its better than any home repair loan.


There are a wide range yes, but i have it narrowed down pretty well. I know all about how i would use the Yukon Husky. I'm just looking into boiler types now. How much the boiler furnace would cost alone, plus the tank, the pump, the plumbing. Then Looking at radiant heat flooring. I have a whole month before closing, and another few weeks after that to move all my stuff in there. I'm not sure if i can just take the 10k and hold onto it for a couple months before i decide which system to go with. But I have a feeling i'll make a decision before then. Anything will be better than a 37 year old oil furnace lol.

 

[maple1]

A boiler, along with everything else you would need with it (heat exchangers? rads/infloor?) will be a LOT more expensive that the Yukon, if it is to be done right.

My project ran me about $15k CAN. That was boiler, storage, backup electric boiler, new water heater, all mics. pipe, fittings, valves, pumps, DHW exchanger, storage enclosure & insulation, taxes, freight, customs & duty. All in. But I did all the work myself (except hooking up the electric boiler & water heater), and I did not touch my existing distribution system or chimney, except to hook to them.

On the efficiency thing, an EPA unit should be more efficient, not less. It might have less burn time, but I also think typically they have smaller fire boxes. Lots of happy owners/users of EPA furnaces on here. Kuuma, Tundra, Caddy. Also some happy Yukon owners, I think.

 

[laynes69]

What Yukon replied is the opposite from what I've found. I went from an old furnace to a Epa certified model, and the burn times increased, the flue temps dropped by half and wood consumption decreased considerably.

 

[maple1]

Almost sounds like they are using wording like that, to help move their older units before they aren't allowed to sell them.

Actually, I was thinking non-EPA units weren't allowed to be sold now - but I don't really know.

 

[Highbeam]

Almost sounds like they are using wording like that, to help move their older units before they aren't allowed to sell them.

I agree with you maple1. The salesman was trying to dump old stock. He carefully said that burn times would drop but did not say that efficiency would go down. What this really means is that rather than allow a load to inefficiently smolder and pollute and foul your chimney, the new models may burn at a higher rate, likely more efficiently with cleaner emissions and a cleaner stack. The more you read the Yukon reply, the more it seems like he had no idea what he was talking about except to say that they are adding more secondary air.

In the old days you could easily smolder an air tight wood stove over night and it would have a really long burn time but also like 50% efficiency and a lot of pollution and creosote. The newer EPA stoves extract more heat with higher efficiency but have a shorter burntime. With a modern boiler, folks are harnessing energy from this higher burn rate with storage that can slowly be released to the home. It's like an artificial long burn time since you are able to release the heat to the home very slowly.

Getting a very low burn rate (very long burn time), very high efficiency, and low emissions is the magical place. It's currently only available from a catalytic wood stove which is why I use a catalytic wood stove to heat my home.

I like my 1700 SF home with no basement. With a family of four we don't feel cramped and I feel it is a good use of resources vs. a 3500 SF home from the 2000s. aka a McMansion.

 

[LarryDix]

So obviously the oil furnace needs to be replaced. The question is, with what.

First option? Yukon
I've been looking at the yukon eagle husky oil and wood furnace for a couple reasons. It's been around for 37 years and has been fairly reliable for people. It lights the wood using the oil burner. It can use the existing metal ducting. It can also be used out the same chimney. It can be dissassembled to fit into the basement downstairs. It has a water heater add on and can control an a/c unit.
Downfalls, it's a 37 year old design and isn't as efficient as a water boiler furnace from say econoburn.
It's about $5,500 shipped to my door, more expensive than just getting an "efficient" oil furnace.
I'm not sure if it's more or less money to purchase an entire indoor water boiler furnace though. I'm guessing less.

Second option? Kuuma
Only problem with the kuuma is that i want a secondary heating source and the kuuma requires its own chimney. If I got an oil furnace that would need its own chimney. The fireplace in the living room has its own chimney but that only goes to the 1st floor.

third option? water boiler
i don't know much about the cost of these. I'd want an indoor one like the econoburn i guess? But once again, i wouldn't be able to use an oil furnace as a backup. I'd have to use electric, and that's super expensive.


So what do you guys think? What's the most cost efficient way of heating a home using wood/oil/electric. (gas isn't available)

There are many types of heating system like wood, oil, gas, geothermal, etc. I think you should check out for geothermal or gas option and if they are not so available, you can go with oil heating.

 

[DBoon]

Every situation is different - if you are going to move quickly, I would take a half step and do one or two of the following:

- Put in a wood stove. This doesn't have to cost a lot, and can give you the energy independence you are looking for this year. Keep in mind that if you don't have wood already stacked and dried, this will be a very frustrating year for you trying to burn wet wood.
- Put in a new oil fired furnace tied into the existing ductwork. I'm guessing that this will be about $4k. My new oil boiler was $4k installed a few years back (uses 30% less oil than the vintage 1977 one that it replaced). This can be the "backup" in the future if you decide to go solar (with a heat pump tied into the ductwork, or mini-split)
- Put in a wood-fired furnace, but this is risky for this year (and maybe next) if you don't already have a two year of wood stacked and dried.
- Put in a ductless mini-split. This can take some of the load off of the oil furnace in the shoulder season (and even the winter season, if you get the right one). I've had a 15 kBTU unit heating a rather uninsulated home in Central NY for three seasons now, and running all the time (set to 60 degrees) it has satisfied ~85% of the heating load and kept my old oil furnace burning just 50 gallons of oil a year when it gets really cold outside. So yes, these things work. In an average winter, it will use about 4 MWh of electricity (less last year). This can air condition for you as well in the summer (added bonus for the hottest two weeks of the year). This should cost about $3500, less if you buy it wholesale and put it in yourself (if you have someone who can install the refrigerant line).

I don't blame you for not wanting a propane tank in your yard. I wouldn't either.

Good luck - sounds like a great deal on a nice old house. Whereabouts are you in Central NY?

 

[jrod770]

"I could get LP but i'm really opposed to the giant eye sore of a tank outside the home (there's already a 40g one for the stove)."

They make 1000 gallon tanks that can be buried in the ground, completely out of sight.