Repair Insert or Repair Fireplace - Advice?

[Amin1992]

Hey guys. I bought my first home a few months ago and I'm completely torn here. Built in 1970 and has an original mason fireplace. However, previous owner installed a Heatilator wood stove insert 2 years ago, for whatever reason.

Got the fireplace inspected after we bought and was told that it was not installed correctly, as there is no stainless steel liner - he installed the insert directly into the terra cotta original liner, and this is apparently a dangerous issue.

Got 3 quotes in the area and the cheapest to install the stainless steel liner would be $2,450. Ouch.

So I got to thinking and thought maybe I could remove (and sell?) the wood stove insert and convert the fireplace back to a traditional fireplace? Here are my thoughts:

PROS of a Fireplace over Insert:
-Can burn larger logs
-I like the charm and feel of an open, large traditional fireplace
-Wouldn't use the wood stove for major heating purposes. It is located in the lower level (bilevel) that is only about 500 square feet, and the room it is in is about 150 square feet. I'd hate to keep the Insert, only to have it turn the room into a sweaty oven! However, I don't plan on using the convection fan on the insert as it's annoying. I'd like it to make the room cozy, but not looking to heat the entire floor/home with it as an appliance, per say.
-If all the fireplace needs is a new damper, then I was quoted $700 for inspection + damper install, a savings of $1.7k

CONS of this idea:
-The original fireplace is 45 years old now. Even if it passes inspection this year, what are the chances of it needing major repair in the next 10 or 20 years? I'd hate to make this decision, only to end up needing to install an insert in a few years anyway
-I've heard that fireplaces actually pull heat from the rest of the house. Unfortunately the lower level of my home where the fireplace is has no door, and opens up to a large open foyer to the bulk of the house. I don't want to increase my heating costs
-It would be cool to use the insert as emergency heat, and be able to cook on the ledge of it.

Points I'm not sure matter:
-Regardless of whether it's a fireplace or a stove, I plan on only using this 4 to 5 times a month, so probably no more than 20 times/year.
-I also just want to keep it simple and would like to sweep it myself
-Will NOT be buying kiln dried wood to burn. All wood I burn would be from my wooded property (downed trees, old pallets, etc)

I've got an inspection of the fireplace scheduled a few weeks out to find out if it's worth converting to a traditional fireplace. The chimney sweep guys I spoke with were very adamant towards keeping it an insert, but their points all had to do with the economical reasons. Since I'm so on the fence, I figured it'd be best to at least figure out whether I want to convert back to traditional, so I don't waste $200 on another inspection and everyone's time.

IN SHORT, I want a fire in the home for the aesthetic, to keep the room itself cozy (not entire house), and want to choose something that is financially sound in the long run. Is it better for me to fully convert a 45 year old fireplace into a wood stove insert, or convert it back to a traditional fireplace? Thanks for your input guys.

 

[Bad LP]

The very last thing I would do is to turn it back into a fire place unless you are willing to have it suck all the heat (you paid money for) out of the house and up the chimney.
I have no idea of the condition of the fireplace.
I'd get another quote on the liner install.
An insert needs a fan. Period.
There are many options in a fire viewing free standing wood stove that can be used without electricity and have a cooking surface.

 

[Amin1992]

The very last thing I would do is to turn it back into a fire place unless you are willing to have it suck all the heat (you paid money for) out of the house and up the chimney.
I have no idea of the condition of the fireplace.
I'd get another quote on the liner install.
An insert needs a fan. Period.
There are many options in a fire viewing free standing wood stove that can be used without electricity and have a cooking surface.

Thanks for your input. Does it really suck up that much heat?

I got 3 quotes ranging from 2400 to 3000.

So for an insert, what happens if you don't use the fan? Does it just not heat as well? I'm fine with that. Or does it overheat? Because if I am actually required to use the fan I'll just never use it. It's loud and I like the simplicity of starting a fire, not running a cord to the outlet 4 feet away everytime...

 

[begreen]

If this is a Heatilator WINS-18 insert then it has a variable-speed blower. At low speed the sound level should be reasonable. It isn't a necessity, but it will make a notable difference in heat output.
How tall is the chimney on this insert? Did you get a quote from a certified chimney sweep? If not, you can locate one here: www.csia.org

 

[Amin1992]

If this is a Heatilator WINS-18 insert then it has a variable-speed blower. At low speed the sound level should be reasonable. It isn't a necessity, but it will make a notable difference in heat output.
How tall is the chimney on this insert? Did you get a quote from a certified chimney sweep? If not, you can locate one here: www.csia.org

Hey thanks for the input. It is a WINS-18 but I don't like the fan at any level. I just wouldn't use it as the outlet is far away, other things plugged in, etc. It is a small room so in all honest heat output isn't the major factor for me. It's more for the aesthetic if anything. All 3 quotes were from certified sweeps, 2 small companies and 1 larger one.

Thanks for the help

 

[begreen]

What did the sweeps say about the condition of the chimney? Is it lined, in good condition and safe for fireplace operation? Is the damper still in place?

 

[Amin1992]

What did the sweeps say about the condition of the chimney? Is it lined, in good condition and safe for fireplace operation? Is the damper still in place?

Unfortunately they said the original inspection ($200) was for anything regarding the Wood Stove Insert, so for the chimney itself they only noted it had no stainless steel liner. At the time I didnt know enough about this field and have since been told I have to pay for a second inspection to inspect as a traditional fireplace chimney.

In your experience, what are the odds that a 45 year old mason/terra cotta chimney is in good condition, and if it is, how much longer would it stay that way? What's the typical lifespan?

 

[begreen]

In your experience, what are the odds that a 45 year old mason/terra cotta chimney is in good condition, and if it is, how much longer would it stay that way? What's the typical lifespan?

There are too many variables to make an armchair prediction. It could be in nice shape or it could have design, material or construction flaws. Or it could be suffering from remodeling mishaps or just plain neglect. There is no substitute for a proper onsite inspection.

 

[Bad LP]

Thanks for your input. Does it really suck up that much heat?

I spent a lot of money on a rather nice looking full masonry fireplace and 3 flues. 1 flue for the fireplace in the living room and 2 for the basement. I stopped using the living room fireplace very quickly when my LP boiler would fire up trying to keep the house warm. I couldn't stand the thought of spending all the money on heating the house only to suck it all out for ambiance.

Installed the insert and use it a lot more than I thought I would. It's not uncommon to have the wood boiler running and the insert blazing away.
As for your other concerns. There are other ways of powering the fan as well. I wouldn't be caught dead looking at the wire coming out of the opening.

 

[spudman99]

Several interesting questions. Being very familiar with Bi-Level homes (not a common style in many areas), moving heat from the family room on the lower level upwards to the sleeping rooms can be difficult. Yes heat rises, but it also cools down as it mixes with colder air and the net result may be less than satisfactory upstairs. You concern that you may be overheating the family room is valid if you are trying to use the fireplace as a significant heating source (which you indicated you do not plan to).

When you go to sell the house into the future, almost any buyer will have their own level 2 inspection (camera drop) so you might as well get ahead of the curve and do the same now, to avoid possible future repair costs that might be there.

Aesthetically a traditional fireplace is probably nicer than an older insert, the latter of which will only look worse in the future. Remember when green appliances were all the rage in kitchens -- well that was sure fun.

If you intend to only burn weekends, then you are probably purchasing your wood by the cord, and it probably will be wet, leading to a higher chance of creosote. Regardless of what you choose, please consider buying wood now and get it on a pallet and let it season this summer covered. This will make it safer and easier to burn next winter.

The fan on my Princess insert on high sounds about the same as a microwave fan, no louder nor any clicks. On low its not much more than a computer fan.

My recommendation based on your information would be to convert it back to a traditional fireplace, buy your wood this spring for next year, burn as needed and don't worry about the rest of the house since its mainly for ambience. Have it professionally cleaned every 2 years or each cord of wood burned. Make sure the current chimney is inspected with a camera and that there are no cracks in the clay or failed mortar joints and that the crown and cap are in good shape. If any of the above 3 fail, then go ahead and line (bite the bullet) cause you will have to do that in the future anyway.

 

[rwhite]

Yours is probably one of the few situations that I could see the benefits of having an open fireplace. You seem to understand the limitations and desire the ambiance of an open fire. 150sqft is a small room and any insert would probably cook you out. The caveat is how much was cut out to install the insert. Based on the fact that there is no liner they may have just done a slammer install and left everything intact.

 

[Amin1992]

Just wanted to thank everyone for the advice here. Ive decided after careful thought to keep the Wood Stove Insert, for the following reasons:

-Will burn wood longer, so less firewood, which means less trees that need cut and such
-Actually makes more economic sense since it could be used to at least heat the lower level of my home. If I'm spending this kind of money either way it just makes more sense to at least try to recoup that money somehow over time, which wouldn't really happen with a fireplace
-Ease of cleaning: I plan to sweep this myself each year, and cleaning a small, brand new 6" stainless flue sounds a lot easier than cleaning an old, large, terra cotta chimney
-Because I don't plan on getting yearly inspections and sweeps (doing that myself) I'd have much better peace of mind with a brand new stainless flue instead of the old terra cotta one for a traditional fireplace. Even if it passed inspection this year, it may fail in the years in between official inspections and that worries me
-Have a friend who just told me he has a very similar insert (had no clue!) and doesn't use the fan and loves it, has kind of sold me on it


Thank you all again for your help! It means a lot

 

[spudman99]

Thanks for the update. Stick around and continue to post here, we can try to help you get the most out of this existing insert.

As I stated before, please ensure that you have a supply of DRY wood, that is the moisture content 20% or below. Get your wood now for next year, or plan on getting out in March to cut, split and stack your own wood to give it a full summer to season. Cannot emphasize that point enough, and if you already knew that, then my apologies for reinforcing what we see and the #1 issue with poorly performing fireplaces.

 

[Amin1992]

Thanks for the update. Stick around and continue to post here, we can try to help you get the most out of this existing insert.

As I stated before, please ensure that you have a supply of DRY wood, that is the moisture content 20% or below. Get your wood now for next year, or plan on getting out in March to cut, split and stack your own wood to give it a full summer to season. Cannot emphasize that point enough, and if you already knew that, then my apologies for reinforcing what we see and the #1 issue with poorly performing fireplaces.

Thanks so much! I didn't know that in the past but I learned as soon as I bought my house that was needed.

The previous owner has multiple stands of wood. However, they were completely uncovered for what id assume was a year or two. I've since covered the top with a tarp and hope to let them season over the coming summer. Likewise, will be chopping some trees this month to the do the same. I have 2 pallets under a deck I'd like to stack on too.

Thanks again and I'll surely be posting more!

 

[EbS-P]

Well if a fan is a non starter then you have three options. Go back to a fireplace, insert but don’t use the fan, or a hearth mounted stove.

If it were me I’d pull out the insert store it for the rest of the season and burn a open fire place once it passes inspection. From a money point of view 2000$ for a liner is hard to make up with only 20 fires a year. And even burning a fireplace is net energy loss it would take a lot of fires to consume the 2000$ of the liner.
If it’s smokey or not to your liking take the next steps this spring or summer toward an insert or stove. I ran alcohol burners in a fireplace for several years and it was enjoyable.
Evan

 

[Drew3308]

Not sure on the pricing in your area but $2k to install just the liner is crazy. Did that include them providing the liner as well? If so, buy the liner yourself and find someone to install it.

 

[Woody Stover]

buy the liner yourself and find someone to install it.

Or maybe install it yourself. It sounds to me like you might be handy, if you are already gonna go out there and cut your own wood, or tear down pallets. You might get off for around $1K installing it yourself.
But in your shoes, I might go whole-hog and get a new insert. Some have very quiet blowers, and would look really nice. You'd be happy for many years with the right unit.
There are ways to move the heat upstairs so that you don't roast in the stove room.

 

[Amin1992]

Not sure on the pricing in your area but $2k to install just the liner is crazy. Did that include them providing the liner as well? If so, buy the liner yourself and find someone to install it.

Sorry, should have better explained. That is for them to provide the stainless liner, install it, insulate it, and install a new cage at the chimney cap. Is that better for $2.4k?

 

[Amin1992]

Or maybe install it yourself. It sounds to me like you might be handy, if you are already gonna go out there and cut your own wood, or tear down pallets. You might get off for around $1K installing it yourself.
But in your shoes, I might go whole-hog and get a new insert. Some have very quiet blowers, and would look really nice. You'd be happy for many years with the right unit.
There are ways to move the heat upstairs so that you don't roast in the stove room.

I was thinking about trying it but was getting nervous about ordering the wrong parts, falling off the roof, etc... Plus my wife would have better peace of mind having an experienced company install (and warranty) the work so we are just going to do that.

Was also thinking of just buying a new insert installed but this one is almost new (2 years old, rarely used, not even too dirty) and the quote I got for another brand new installed was $3.5k, or $1.1k more than just getting this one installed properly.

I think I will be happy with this one for what I want and need. I appreciate the advice.