Replacement Chimney Liner

[kevder]

Hi all,
We live in MN and need some impartial advice about chimney liners.

We have a KozyHeat FirePlace (air tight, outside air kit, etc).

We currently have a terra cotta liner inside our chimney. These tiles have become damaged assumingly from a chimney fire that we did not know that we had.

We have received a couple of estimates to reline the chimney. My dilemma is that two different companies claim that their product / methods are the best (not really all the surprising). One company uses the Ventinox stainless steel liner with Thermix insulation. They claim that it is superior to the existing clay liner, will improve our draft, and can withstand a chimney fire if we would ever have another one. A second company (recommended by our insurance company) wants to replace the original liner with the same material (terra cotta). They said that their approach was the best. They were quite rude when asked about the stainless steel systems. They told us that we would be stupid to even consider using stainless steel. They also said that terra cotta is better than anything out there. Their biggest knock against the Ventinox / Thermix system was that it could not be replaced without destroying the entire chimney. I’m not sure if I buy this or not.

All of my internet searches have not really turned up any useful information. Everyone is claiming that their product (whatever the material is) is better than anything else. I would like to receive some impartial opinions or ideas where I could get additional information. We plan on using our fire place for many, many years to come and I really don’t want to screw it up. We are leaning towards the Ventinox system. Has anyone had any experience with this?
Thanks for any help you can offer.

Kevder

 

[TMonter]

Where is your chimney located in your house?

How big is the flue?

What kind of wood do you burn?

 

[kevder]

I have a multi-level house. My fireplace is in the basement and the chimney runs up the outside (east side) of my house. We have a good supply of seasoned hardwood. I'm not sure what size my flu is but I think it is 8" sqr. How would location, size, and wood type impact the type of liner we should use?

 

[Hogwildz]

Less expensive, easy to install.....how bout an insulated flex liner inside the existing. or double wall isulated rigid with 5' of flex at the bottom. The second I have done here. Zero clearance, not bad to install. But I have a 11" x 11" inside teracotta I went through. Much less expesive than either of those 2 ways. And yes the Ventinox is good stuff, but once you put that Thermix insulation around it, they are right, if you need to replace, then your in for a bigger mess & bill. Teracotta will be expensive, and you will only get a direct connect. Had that here and Don't care for it.

 

[elkimmeg]

since his chimney is no longer safe to use if he is to choose a stainless steel liner it has to be insulated to achieve the UL 1777 listing Also the liner must come as close to the original size as possible inorder for that fireplace to draft, Did you know Ventnox makes rectangular stainless steel just for that purpose. there is also a process of breaking out the existing clay liners and install new ones either way if done correctly and code complaint will do the job cost wise the stainless steel wise can be done cheaper and quicker

 

[Gooserider]

I don't know what advantage there would be to using terra cotta - it failed once already, why replace it with the same thing? I don't know if it's possible, but if it were, I'd be inclined to bust out the old liner to gain the clearance, then run a ZC prefab chimney down, basically using the old brick structure as a "chase" for the ZC pipe - If it was doable I'd see it as a better option than the Ventinox because it would be a repairable option, where the Ventinox isn't.... However I repeat that I don't know if this is a valid solution.

Gooserider

 

[Hogwildz]

I don't know what advantage there would be to using terra cotta - it failed once already, why replace it with the same thing? I don't know if it's possible, but if it were, I'd be inclined to bust out the old liner to gain the clearance, then run a ZC prefab chimney down, basically using the old brick structure as a "chase" for the ZC pipe - If it was doable I'd see it as a better option than the Ventinox because it would be a repairable option, where the Ventinox isn't.... However I repeat that I don't know if this is a valid solution.

Gooserider

The Terracotta might play a role in the structural integrity of the bricks outside. If you take that out and leave it out, besides what movement taking it out will do, might make it even worse. Just my 2cents. Reline the darn thing with S.S. liner and be done with it.

 

[RonB]

You might want to take a look at the Golden Flue cast liner. I too had a chimney fire and will be getting a new one from Golden Flue shortly. The contractor with this franchise in my area is very knowledgeable. Here is a link (broken link removed to http://www.goldenflue.com/golden.html#The%20Cast-In-Place%20Liner)

 

[Hogwildz]

You might want to take a look at the Golden Flue cast liner. I too had a chimney fire and will be getting a new one from Golden Flue shortly. The contractor with this franchise in my area is very knowledgeable. Here is a link (broken link removed to http://www.goldenflue.com/golden.html#The%20Cast-In-Place%20Liner)

Again here you run into same problem as a Thermix insulation. Its cast in place. If down the road you need repairs, or replacement, I can't imagine the task of getting that out of there for access to replacement or repair of the inner s.s. etc.

 

[BrotherBart]

You might want to take a look at the Golden Flue cast liner. I too had a chimney fire and will be getting a new one from Golden Flue shortly. The contractor with this franchise in my area is very knowledgeable. Here is a link (broken link removed to http://www.goldenflue.com/golden.html#The%20Cast-In-Place%20Liner)

What kind of pricing are they talking about for the poured liner?

 

[kevder]

I don't know what advantage there would be to using terra cotta - it failed once already, why replace it with the same thing? I don't know if it's possible, but if it were, I'd be inclined to bust out the old liner to gain the clearance, then run a ZC prefab chimney down, basically using the old brick structure as a "chase" for the ZC pipe - If it was doable I'd see it as a better option than the Ventinox because it would be a repairable option, where the Ventinox isn't.... However I repeat that I don't know if this is a valid solution.

Gooserider

Thank you everyone. Your feedback has been very helpful.

My insurance company is picking up the bill for the repair. One advantage of the terra cotta is that they would cover the entire cost of the repair should it fail again. They would cover the repair but not the removal of any of the cast in place solutions. I can imagine the cost of deconstruction would almost be as bad as the construction for these solutions. I guess I'm leaning towards the terra cotta replacement becuase of this. Does anyone know how they would actually replace the terra cotta liner? I would imagine that they would have to break up and remove the old one first. How do they get the new one inplace? What about mortar for the joints?

 

[TMonter]

Did you ask if your insurance company would pay the cost of a stainless liner? Stainless is easy and it drafts well. I have a little experience with both and I like the stainless liner option.

 

[kevder]

Did you ask if your insurance company would pay the cost of a stainless liner? Stainless is easy and it drafts well. I have a little experience with both and I like the stainless liner option.

My insurance company will pay for the installation of a stainless liner. However, they will not pay to have one removed if it is cemented in. I'm having a hard time finding someone in my area that doesn't use Thermix. The Ventinox and Thermix sounds good but I just don't know how long it will last and I don't want to have to pay to have my chimney ripped down if it should ever fail.

 

[TMonter]

You don't have to cement a stainless liner in place. Depending on the shelf/Damper in your chimney you also may actually be able to do the liner yourself. Most newer stainless liners "hang" from a top supported termination collar and can be easily removed if needed. In order to prevent cooling on mine I packed the top foot with 2000 degree mineral fiber insulation.

I recommend looking into the stainless liner option. Insulate one with 1/2" of insulation and it meets the UL1777 listing plus, the chimney will stay clean.

Several places sell DIY kits. I bought mine from here:

http://www.hartshearth.com/

 

[jjbaer]

Did you ask if your insurance company would pay the cost of a stainless liner? Stainless is easy and it drafts well. I have a little experience with both and I like the stainless liner option.

My insurance company will pay for the installation of a stainless liner. However, they will not pay to have one removed if it is cemented in. I'm having a hard time finding someone in my area that doesn't use Thermix. The Ventinox and Thermix sounds good but I just don't know how long it will last and I don't want to have to pay to have my chimney ripped down if it should ever fail.

You could do both for peace of mind: let the ins company redo the internal tiles to bring the chimney up to code and then put a flex ss liner in it yourself or you could leave the tiles as is and just have the ins co pay to have the ss liner put in WITH 1/2" insulation. This should give it the UL rating and make it able to withstand chimney fires. Make sure you get 316 Ti stainless steel.......

From this source:

http://www.chimneylinerinc.com/

I ordered the following two days ago: 20 ft of 6" x 20 ft long 316 Ti ss flex liner, stove connector, tube of high temp caulk, a one-piece chimney cap/screen that screws to the sides of the top most flue tile and that is hinged so that you can swing it open for easy cleaning and a 25 ft long insulation kit consisting of 1/2" insulation, adhesive and wire mesh. Price $700 (free FedEx delivery and no tax). The flex liners are removable because the insulation is wrapped around the liner and the liner is then dropped down into the flue as opposed to the insulation material being poured into the flue tiles either around the outside of a liner or around a delfatable bladder which, when deflated, leaves an insulation hole the entire length of the chimney through which flue gases flow (neither of which is easily removed).......

 

[RonB]

You might want to take a look at the Golden Flue cast liner. I too had a chimney fire and will be getting a new one from Golden Flue shortly. The contractor with this franchise in my area is very knowledgeable. Here is a link (broken link removed to http://www.goldenflue.com/golden.html#The%20Cast-In-Place%20Liner)

Again here you run into same problem as a Thermix insulation. Its cast in place. If down the road you need repairs, or replacement, I can't imagine the task of getting that out of there for access to replacement or repair of the inner s.s. etc.

You do have an interesting point--however the system is guaranteed for 25 years, even under chimney fire conditions. Draft is not an issue now with my chimney and certainly it will only improve with an insulated cast-in-place type (I currently have an exterior wall chimney that is not insulated and drafts well). The structure and the integrity of my current chimney will be further strengthened by insulated concrete mixture. There are no seams/joints as well. I have got to know the contractors quite well since entertaining their bid and am confident they will ensure that my chimney does what it is supposed to do. I am not sure what Thermix insulation you are referring to--perhaps it is different. Golden Flue is the only pumped masonary liner UL listed by Underwriters Laboratories. Also, it is the only cast-in-place liner listed by Warnock Hersey for zero clearance to combustibles with just 1" of lining material.