Replacing a fireplace with something more efficient

[dillius]

Would love to get some insight on this topic from those more experienced than myself!

I recently purchased a new home, a cabin style home built in 1997. It has a Heatilator EC42 fireplace on the main floor, which I have had cleaned and inspected. However, I know that a normal fireplace is very inefficient in terms of wood use and heat, and the homes I grew up in always had a good medium sized wood heater to save money through the winter.

I have been speaking with numerous contractors in the area about how to improve upon this situation. My initial thought was to get a wood heater insert, but I have been told that due to the insert having to add its own liner to the inside of the fireplace I would end up with a very small heater overall. (An example suggestion was the Buck Stove Insert Model 18)

Another option proposed to me was to replace the fireplace in its entirety with something nicer, in particular I have had the Quadrafire 7100 suggested. I have spent some time on these forums reading about this particular product, and people seem quite happy with it and it definitely seems like it would accomplish what I want.

I'm curious what others might suggest, or any tips anyone has to offer based on my scenario.

I live in Georgia just north of the metro Atlanta area (particularly the northernmost end of Forsyth county) so I'm not in an area that has extremely cold or long winters, but do get my share of freezing temperatures and snow each year. The HVAC system is simply a heat pump so it is not very efficient itself. In terms of fueling it, the house is on a few wooded acres and I have a couple of options to get cheap/free wood to burn in small quantities each year.

I worry that something the scale of the Quadrafire 7100 may be overkill for my particular situation, though if it is a dependable and low maintenance item I expect given time it would pay for itself regardless.

 

[bfast250]

I have the same fireplace and will be repacing it with a zero clearance high efficieny fireplace (Pacific Energy FP-30) this year. I am in St. Louis so not too far off in terms of climate.

Do you plan to heat entirely, supplement, or only once in a while? How many sq feet do you plan to heat? What is the layout/floor plan?

My understanding is that replacement with any of the quality high efficieny zero clearance fireplaces would be best if you prefer that look. There is a member here that has a spreadsheet with many of the quality models and specs. Maybe try a search for "zero clearance"?

Most will tell you a wood stove is going to provide you better heat if you are interested in that route. Either way plan on spending some $$.

Start gathering wood now if you plan to burn hardwoods. Check out the woodshed forum for ideas on keeping it dry and off the ground.

Best of luck to you!

 

[dillius]

My idea would mainly be to supplement on the coldest nights, though it really does depend on my ability to get my hands on enough wood.

I have over 2600 square feet, and high ceilings. The current fireplace is on the main floor, slight off from center of the entire structure, facing the living room. The only thing above it is high ceilings and the master bed/bath. There is a sizable basement below, which I may try to setup the HVAC system to be able to vent hot air throughout the house from whatever unit I end up with.

The previous owner of the house left lots of cut hardwood around, but he didn't really protect it much.

 

[blacktail]

The buck 18 takes a 6" flue like most inserts and stoves.

 

[DAKSY]

Your other option is to place a stove (or a hearth heater) in front of the ZC box
& that way you won't be limited by the size of the opening.
You WILL probably be limited to a rear-exit stove.
You may have to increase the hearth to accommodate
the clearances of the new unit, but you'll have a LOT more
stoves to choose from.

 

[dillius]

The hearth "area" is already fairly big relative to the size of the fireplace in it, I'm just not sure that putting something in front of it is worth the taken up space. At that point, I'd almost certainly rather just fully replace with something like the quadrafire.

I think my biggest concern is efficiency, which it seems like the quadrafire excels at. I very much doubt I would even try to heat the entirety of the house, more just making sure the living room and master bedroom are toasty. So my priority would be getting the most burn time out the least wood I can use.

 

[begreen]

Heatilator fireplaces may be ok to install an insert into. I didn't find language preventing this in the manual. The constraining factor for installing an insert will probably be the opening height. You might consult another dealership about options, for example the Quadrafire 2700i insert.

 

[bholler]

Heatilator fireplaces may be ok to install an insert into. I didn't find language preventing this in the manual. The constraining factor for installing an insert will probably be the opening height. You might consult another dealership about options, for example the Quadrafire 2700i insert.

the warning on page 4 clearly says you cant use anything not listed in the manual with this fireplace And there are no inserts listed so you cant use one with this fireplace without written consent from hearth and home tech.

 

[armanidog]

How many square feet will you be heating?
Englander makes an insert rated for 1500 sq. ft. They are sold through Home Depot and have free shipping to the store. $1029 with a blower and fireplace cover.
http://www.heatredefined.com/englander/stove/Englander-1500-Sq.-Ft.-Wood-Fireplace-Insert

 

[begreen]

the warning on page 4 clearly says you cant use anything not listed in the manual with this fireplace And there are no inserts listed so you cant use one with this fireplace without written consent from hearth and home tech.

That is why I suggested a Quad (Hearth and Home) stove. Check with the dealer.

 

[bholler]

That is why I suggested a Quad (Hearth and Home) stove. Check with the dealer.

The dealer is not authorized to make that call you need to get it from the company. And I seriously doubt they will give the ok to put a stove in a fireplace that has not been tested for inserts as some of their newer ones have been. It clearly says in the manual that using any acessories other than those listed in the manual will void the ul listing. That means you cant do it.

 

[begreen]

The Quadra-Fire 2700-I Insert is listed to UL 1482 Standard and is approved for installation into listed factory-built zero clearance fireplaces listed to UL 127. But just to be sure, I already have contacted HHT and should have an answer in the next few days.

 

[bholler]

into listed factory-built zero clearance fireplaces listed to UL 127

yes but as the instruction manual says as soon as you remove the damper and put a liner and insert in there that fireplace is no longer ul listed so you are at that point not following either set of instructions. The only fireplaces that can have an insert put in them are the ones that have been tested to do so and only with the inserts that have been tested to go in them.

 

[begreen]

That is the csia position. Many insert manufacturers seem to disagree. One would think that if there was a liability issue here that there would be a large case record. Is there?

 

[bholler]

That is the csia position. Many insert manufacturers seem to disagree. One would think that if there was a liability issue here that there would be a large case record. Is there?

Those insert manufacturers have covered their asses by saying you need to install it into a UL listed fireplace knowing very well that once you modify that fireplace to put the insert in there you have voided that listing. There fore all liability falls directly on the installer. That and the fact that those inserts were not tested in those every fireplace there is absolutely no way whatsoever a manufacturer can say as they claim that their insert can be installed in any fireplace safely.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

I've got a similar Heatilator HB42 and I'm curious about some of the other options. I'm having fun collecting and splitting wood and it's nice to have good fires going during the NY winters. I just don't want to be wasting energy by making fires. It must adding some heat to the room because the thermostat reads 75-78 when I have a good fire going. I just sealed off some of the big holes and installed a dual fan kit which blows some more heat into the room. For some reason my heatilator frame has five 2" holes where the fan is mounted. It just blows cold air under the fireplace right back out. After patching those holes it blows a little bit into the fire and then has a little bit of airflow out the top now.

What kind of range would you be looking at for an insert installed into a 42" fireplace like this? We pay maybe $800-1000 for gas heat a winter for our 2400sq ft house. So if you are starting at $3-4K to install a lower/mid-end insert and we can supplement even 25% of the energy we are talking 20 years before you would start paying it back. That's assuming you have 20 years of free wood. If it's just for enjoyment the open fireplace also adds to the factor. So is it only worth it if you replace your heating with wood full time?

 

[bholler]

I just sealed off some of the big holes and installed a dual fan kit which blows some more heat into the room. For some reason my heatilator frame has five 2" holes where the fan is mounted. It just blows cold air under the fireplace right back out. After patching those holes it blows a little bit into the fire and then has a little bit of airflow out the top now.

You cannot close off any of those holes those holes circulate air around your firebox keeping the outside cool by closing them off you could be making a very dangerous situation.

 

[ValleyCottageSplitter]

You cannot close off any of those holes those holes circulate air around your firebox keeping the outside cool by closing them off you could be making a very dangerous situation.

There was no circulation because air can only circulate underneath the firebox. There are more holes in the back of the bottom chamber that also restrict the flow going up around the box. With the front holes sealed there is an actual positive flow up and around the firebox. If you turn on the fans with the holes open it actually will result in less flow to the hot part of the airbox. I can tell because once I closed off the holes there was a lot of light dust (not ash) sitting in the top collecting for years. It is a horrible design. If they need air to naturally circulate through the box without fans blowing, it needs to have a sealed air channel to achieve maximum flow and no fans. The cool air underneath the firebox stays underneath the firebox and doesn't want to rise unless there are fans to blow it up by the hot damper.

Also, all of the installation images have no holes but cutouts for the fan. Have you seen this design before? I'm assuming you have more experience with fireplaces bholler, so I will investigate it further. I'm just looking at it from my engineering background and it seems to be a bad heat transfer design. Sorry to hijack the thread.

 

[begreen]

That and the fact that those inserts were not tested in those every fireplace there is absolutely no way whatsoever a manufacturer can say as they claim that their insert can be installed in any fireplace safely.

In any fireplace safely? They are fine for masonry fireplaces and I haven't heard csia state that these installations are unsafe if installed properly. When I spoke with the csia their concern was liability. Safety was not brought up as an issue. To my knowledge, neither has csia tested these inserts nor pointed out failures in proper installations, but the insert makers have tested at least some configurations. Apparently enough to satisfy their lawyers. Waiting to see what HHT has to say.

 

[bholler]

In any fireplace safely?

I meant any zc fireplace and you know it. And can you tell me what zc fireplaces the inserts were tested in? And what standard were they tested to? As I have said before the liability issue on the insert side is taken care of by the part requiring installation into a ul listed zc fireplace.

 

[begreen]

That question is better asked of manufacturers like @BKVP and @kuma.jason. When I was at Travis Industries I did ask if they tested inserts in ZC fireplaces, but not specifically which models. I would assume that HHT tests with Heatilator and Quad inserts, but will wait from word from them.

 

[bholler]

I would assume that HHT tests with Heatilator and Quad inserts, but will wait from word from them.

yes in there fire places which is why in their instructions for those fireplaces it tells you you can do it. But when the fireplace instructions tell you you cant do it you cant unless you get the manufacturer of the fireplace to sign off on it. With out that you are voiding the ul listing and violating code.

 

[BKVP]

Boy you want to speak of the proverbial hornets nest! Yes, there is a test that one or more safety test labs performs at the request of the manufacturer. Our inserts are all tested for ZC (manufactured) fireplaces. The test includes measuring and qualifying additional temperatures and are difficult to psss. In our units, the bypass is left open and the fueling protocol can result in very high stack temps, in some cases requiring a special flue adapter.

Of course ZERO modifications can be made of the fireplace, the existing chimney will not suffice a full length insulted liner is required.

And as beholler points out, it must the ZC must also have specific ratings....UL 127 as I recall.

 

[bholler]

And as beholler points out, it must the ZC must also have specific ratings....UL 127 as I recall.

And are you ok with your insert being installed in a fireplace that specifically says you cannot install an insert in it? I am not trying to be confrontational at all I just am curious what your answer is.

 

[begreen]

yes in there fire places which is why in their instructions for those fireplaces it tells you you can do it. But when the fireplace instructions tell you you cant do it you cant unless you get the manufacturer of the fireplace to sign off on it. With out that you are voiding the ul listing and violating code.

I'm still not understanding where you think there is a safety issue. Doesn't the insert's UL testing then supercede, especially if the insert manufacture has it tested for ZC use? The ZC is no longer functioning as a fireplace. It is just a shell in which the insert resides. The insert sides are much lower temp than an open fire and the liner is insulated thus providing more protection than the original chimney.