Replacing my existing old heatilator w/ZC - tax credit options - again (confused)

[cabinwarmer]

Good Day, Working on replacing older firebox. Is the Montecito Estate, that lists at 79%, the only ZC fireplace on the market at this time? This is what I came up with after research, but wanted to verify. Hoping I have more choices, but maybe not. I will post more details on sizing and venting, but wanted to see if anyone could provide some guidance on what ZC firebox's are on the tax listing. I can not find any but this one recommended from Begreen awhile back. Thanks, Dave

 

[EbS-P]

That appears to me, a complete amateur, to be a masonry fireplace. Am I wrong?

If I am correct you want to look at inserts unless you are demoing it all and starting over.

 

[cabinwarmer]

The firebox and damper are completely rusted out. I am not to sure which one one work best. If an insert is the correct way to go, I am all in. I am under the impression that the old firebox would be cut out. Maybe I am missing something. Less demo the better. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[stoveliker]

I better hope it was a masonry fireplace, given that fires were had in that hole...

Funny uneducated use of a stone like a keystone above the fireplace...

 

[cabinwarmer]

Has been burning for over 40 years I bet. And yes, 100% masonry, PA Blue Stone I have been told. Is that even a stone? You can see why it needs some work. Looks like an insert is the proper unit with a new SS chimney flue. Agree?

 

[stoveliker]

Yes

 

[cabinwarmer]

Here is the outside of the chimney - 15' tall.

 

[stoveliker]

it's short; most stoves and inserts require a minimum of 15'. So be aware when you look for an insert.

 

[cabinwarmer]

Will do, I am a stove guy, so this insert market is new to me. Tax credit is important (75% eff), chimney height I suppose could go a bit above current stone with extension. CAT vs no Cat, large fire box, hearth extension, viewing area. Will learn along the way, thanks for your help.

 

[stoveliker]

The good news is that there are more inserts on that list than ZC fireplaces.

 

[EbS-P]

All the inserts 75% HHV and above are catalytic. I just did a DIY Drolet 1800i with insulated 25’ liner for 2000$ Including tax. Not tax credit eligible. FWIW.

 

[bholler]

Has been burning for over 40 years I bet. And yes, 100% masonry, PA Blue Stone I have been told. Is that even a stone? You can see why it needs some work. Looks like an insert is the proper unit with a new SS chimney flue. Agree?

That is correct

 

[stoveliker]

I also note that efficiencies for tax-credit eligible and modern non-eligible inserts will be hard to impossible to notice in normal consumer use. So finding a good "just below the efficiency requirement" insert as above could be financially better than buying a too of the line (e.g. BK).

Notice though that the credit also applies to the chimney liner and installation, which can make a decent difference.

Before installing a liner, have the chimney professionally cleaned. (Don't want to have glowing creosote outside of your liner).

Also, if you don't know whether the masonry chimney is at least 2" from any combustible, it's best to install an insulated liner (for which the 2" clearance of masonry to combustibles is not needed).

 

[cabinwarmer]

Excellent advise guys, thanks!

 

[begreen]

The firebox and damper are completely rusted out. I am not to sure which one one work best. If an insert is the correct way to go, I am all in. I am under the impression that the old firebox would be cut out. Maybe I am missing something. Less demo the better. Thanks for the clarification.

Looks like a heatform style firebox. An insert (not ZC) can go in there if it fits. An insulated stainless liner will be required. BK inserts qualify for the tax credit.

 

[cabinwarmer]

Yes, I believe the BK Ashland 25 is where I am headed. The area to heat consists of 2 floors of only 300 sq' each. The stairs are in the far corner from the insert. Three floor vents have been previously cut in the floor boards. All four walls of the room are stone and 18-24 inches thick. (think 1774 structure, originally). The rooms are average in insulation and it is a cool area. The AS25 looks like a good fit btu wise?

I will need a larger shroud. My fireplace opening is 50 " wide and 35 " high. Does BZ make custom shrouds? Do I need to go to a fabrication shop locally to build? If I go locally, how to I get some type of blue print for the fabricator to follow? Would it be better to simply make the opening smaller with new stone to fit the BZ largest shroud? I also would like to have a blocker plate installed, I also assume that is custom as well. My chimney is 15' tall, just meets the AS25 requirement. There are several SS liners out ther. Is there a recommended manufacturer for my set up? The flue is plenty large (13") - so not an issue. Thaks in advance for your time around this.

 

[stoveliker]

Having thick stone walls that suck in a lot of energy to get up to temp, but then stay there quite long, it's indeed good to have long steady heat as you want to avoid cooldown of the walls (which you'd need to heat up again). A BK is good in that respect.

The space.os fairly small, so I think you'll be ok. The upstairs temps depend on how efficient you can move the heat there.
If you can add a (booster) fan in the vents blowing cold air from the upstairs floors down, it's going to be replaced by warm air flowing up thru the stairs.

Be aware about code though, regarding penetrations in floors. Maybe you have to add a fire damper (that closed when it gets too hot). Moving heat also means moving fire more easily if shtf.

(I can't help with the surround issue. Ask your dealer or @BKVP ?)

 

[cabinwarmer]

Good idea with the vents. Are they 110v?

 

[stoveliker]

Yes.
Booster fans or if you have a but of (e.g. 6") duct, you can add an inline fan.

 

[BKVP]

Before you place ANY INSERT into your fireplace, I'd identify the cause of the rust on the current metal components. You may have to apply some sort of sealant on the stone (interior). Moisture infiltrated the fireplace somewhere. If that were to continue, no steel fireplace insert would not rust.

 

[cabinwarmer]

Excellent thought. I believe it may have come from the proximity to the ground in the firebox, just condensation over the years. This current set up is from the 60's I believe. The baffle/fire shelf rust , I believe came from rain water entering from the top of the chimney. It has a very crude covering over the flue. A simple flat stone 12 inches above the top. Will sure that up when the new liner is installed. But yes, very good idea and thanks for pointing that out.

 

[begreen]

Yes, I believe the BK Ashland 25 is where I am headed. The area to heat consists of 2 floors of only 300 sq' each. The stairs are in the far corner from the insert. Three floor vents have been previously cut in the floor boards. All four walls of the room are stone and 18-24 inches thick. (think 1774 structure, originally). The rooms are average in insulation and it is a cool area. The AS25 looks like a good fit btu wise?

I will need a larger shroud. My fireplace opening is 50 " wide and 35 " high. Does BZ make custom shrouds? Do I need to go to a fabrication shop locally to build? If I go locally, how to I get some type of blue print for the fabricator to follow? Would it be better to simply make the opening smaller with new stone to fit the BZ largest shroud? I also would like to have a blocker plate installed, I also assume that is custom as well. My chimney is 15' tall, just meets the AS25 requirement. There are several SS liners out ther. Is there a recommended manufacturer for my set up? The flue is plenty large (13") - so not an issue. Thaks in advance for your time around this.

If the fireplace has a rough stone face it might be better to recess the insert slightly and do a custom shroud that is inset from the fireplace face by an inch or so. Otherwise, an extension can be made from stiff steel (say 20ga) and painted satin black. The large shroud is 32 " x 44 " so a 5" extension would work.

 

[cabinwarmer]

Yes, I was thinking @2.5 custom on all sides. When you say set back in an inch, that would still require the @2.5 custom, correct? You can see by the picture on the OP that I have plenty of depth with the current firebox and stone wall. I like the idea of setting it back in 1 inch. That would require "caulking" or not, between the outside stone and the insert setback? I also would think I should look into insulating the firebox as well?

 

[Caw]

Also it's worth mentioning that the tax credit isn't refundable. I think I read that in a different thread here? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but depending on your tax exposure it may not even matter. If budget is a concern then as said above, there are lots of great systems out there for less $ like the Drolet lines etc.

I have an Osburn (higher trim drolet basically) and have had good experiences with SBI overall. I wouldn't hesitate to go with one of their products.

 

[cabinwarmer]

Yes, understand the tax credit vs might not be a driving factor. Just an early numbers crunch and since I will need a full installation along with flue and also custom steal work, I think the 26% would be a larger amount. BUT, yes, I will continue to research and it might be a better fit for another product line. I do know I want to be able to control the air intake, want something bigger then 2.0 fire box, and would enjoy a larger glass viewing area, are my preferences. Thanks for the reminder and guidance.