Replacing wood stove -- sizing

[pinefall]

I am preparing to replace a 1980s era wood stove (original to the house) and am having difficulty comparing heat output ratings from different manufactures.

The current stove is a Federal Airtight (Dutchwest India LTD) model FA264CCL which is appropriately sized to the house. The house itself is ~2400 sq ft. First floor is ~1500 sq ft with a large great room plus a bedroom. Upstairs is ~900 sq ft with bedrooms / offices. The wood stove is in the great room. The primary heat source is a heat pump. We are in east Tennessee so we are not dealing with long winters or very extreme cold. With the current wood stove running, the heat pump generally does not come on and the living spaces of the house are at a comfortable temperature.

For the replacement stove, we are looking for something with a similar heat output. I also really like the side loading feature of the Federal Airtight. And we would prefer something with clean lines, not overly ornate. It must be eligible for the current US tax credit.

The leading contender in our search is the Jøtul F 500 V3 Oslo. Does that seem reasonable to the wisdom of hearth.com? Any other suggestions to consider?

Thanks.

 

[jalmondale]

One way to compare the heat output is to check the actual EPA test reports for a given stove - they'll tell you the BTU/hr combined with the number of hours that's averaged over for a given air intake setting (generally they test several different settings, so this can give you a low/medium/high sense). For the Jotul, for instance, it output an average of 20.5k BTU/hr for 4.17 hrs on the second-highest setting.

If you want a side-loading cat stove, I'd also look at the Woodstock Progress Hybrid or Absolute Steel (in the Great Plain style - you have to love a company that puts puns in their stove names). Those both have a slightly wider heating range than the Jotul (EPA tests for that are 14k - 38k/hr), so you'd be able to handle a wider range of outside temperatures by setting the stove to the appropriate level.

That said, the Jotul seems well-received around here, so that's a great choice as well!

 

[stoveliker]

Why did you like the side loading of the FA?

I had that stove before my current one, and I liked it because it's easier to load the rectangular firebox from the side. My current stove is almost square and I can load from the front door only but it does allow me to load "facing the cut ends of the splits". I like that as much (or even more).

I would also look at stoves with a good turn down, given the milder winters there (I used to live in Eastern TN).

 

[stoveliker]

I read from my old manual that the stove has an output range of 6600 to 27600 BTU per hour.

The jotul seems 13000 to 37000 BTU per hour.

So it depends on how hard you ran the FA264ccl whether the jotul will do the job or not.

These Numbers are always to be taken with a grain of salt...

 

[Poindexter]

How may cords are you burning annually now?

 

[begreen]

Note that EPA test loads are not really representative of the average cord wood load. That's why the high end of many stoves is considerably higher than the EPA high heat BTU output. This is a test load in a 2 cu ft stove. Ever load like that?

 

[begreen]

I would look at 2.5 to 3.0 cu ft stoves. There are several good ones. Your winters are shorter, but when a polar express descends from Ohio it can get cold, especially if one is up in the mountains. Consider the Jotul F45 and F55 while looking.

Do you have several good dealers in the area? What do they sell?

 

[pinefall]

Why did you like the side loading of the FA?

I had that stove before my current one, and I liked it because it's easier to load the rectangular firebox from the side. My current stove is almost square and I can load from the front door only but it does allow me to load "facing the cut ends of the splits". I like that as much (or even more).

I would also look at stoves with a good turn down, given

As you say, it’s easier to load. Our previous stove was a Vermont Castings which could be loaded from the top (small opening) or the front (messy). The side loading solves both problems.

But I could be open to a squarish front loader and loading it “sideways”.

The Blaze King Chinook is also on our short list.

Thanks.

 

[pinefall]

How may cords are you burning annually now?

Two to four.

 

[pinefall]

Do you have several good dealers in the area? What do they sell?

That might be another post 🙂

There are no dealers in the immediate area currently. Dealers in the 40 to 100 mile range include Jøtul, Blaze King and several others. But some won’t handle installation at that distance and others are being noncommittal about availability or installation.

I‘m hoping to narrow down the choice and then focus on finding a dealer and installer.

 

[stoveliker]

Yes, a "side loading" stove is nice for that. For square boxes, they call that "north-south" loading, i.e. splits laying from front to back (as opposed to east-west). Same convenience (though different place where the door swings, so hearth pad requirements etc. matter).


Not sure where you are; I lived on the outskirts of Knoxville.

If you're not higher up the mountains, I'd seriously consider something you can turn down. Yes, you'll have the occasional 5 F early morning, but the far far majority of the time, you'll need much much less heat. A stove that can turn down will suit you very well all that time. Your existing stove was nice (I had one - here in NY), but it's not a big heat producer. Some modern 2.5-3 cu ft stoves could bake you out of your home imo.

What is your insulation situation?

 

[pinefall]

Yes, a "side loading" stove is nice for that. For square boxes, they call that "north-south" loading, i.e. splits laying from front to back (as opposed to east-west). Same convenience (though different place where the door swings, so hearth pad requirements etc. matter).


Not sure where you are; I lived on the outskirts of Knoxville.

If you're not higher up the mountains, I'd seriously consider something you can turn down. Yes, you'll have the occasional 5 F early morning, but the far far majority of the time, you'll need much much less heat. A stove that can turn down will suit you very well all that time. Your existing stove was nice (I had one - here in NY), but it's not a big heat producer. Some modern 2.5-3 cu ft stoves could bake you out of your home imo.

What is your insulation situation?

We have a nice stone platform and back wall for the stove so no issue with the pad requirements. We are roughly between Knoxville and Chattanooga so similar temperatures to what you saw. The house is passive solar from the late 1980s and insulated reasonably for that era. With the wood stove running, the heat pump stays off. (And when temperatures are <20F, the heat pump is not very effective.)

Too much heat is my concern with the more efficient modern stoves. The Jøtul Oslo seem to be able to be regulated. My concern with the Blaze King Chinook was that it was set and forgot and would put out too much heat. Comments based on actual experience welcome.

We’ve been pleased with the performance of the Federal Airtight but it’s showing it’s age. The tax credit makes it a great time to update.

 

[stoveliker]

The jotul is certainly a good stove - begreen does know which are good and would note if there is not enough data yet to conclude that (because e.g. a new model).

The Chinook is set it and forget it but it is not one of the "no user control" stoves. It has a thermostat that enables a co trolled and thus even output (no electricity required). And together with the catalyst it allows for an extension of the BTU output range to lower values.

My stove is in the basement and I can (and have) kept the basement constant at e.g. 72 F for 25-30 hrs. Or at 84 for 10-11 hrs. Or as now (25F night yesterday and today) at 76 F for 15-16 hrs. (With the stove in the basement I need to have it at different heat outputs, so different basement temperatures for different outside temps because the heat loss of the home above changes with the outside conditions).

My view is that this technology allows you to more easily run at low output. And doing that means running long times between reloads. I had a 32-35 hr run a few weeks ago.

BUT that also means you have to keep an eye on the weather the next day. While you are not set on the burn rate you dial in at the start (i.e. you can increase or decrease easily with a small twist of the knob), if you are already running at the lowest rate you can, and it's warmer outside then expected, you will have a home that's too warm.

But that is the same for every stove. It's just that the timeframe of a BK is longer than most when running low.

Now, you can go for another stove, a big enough one (see begreens advice), because you can always make a smaller fire in it.

I don't like that because why would I make one or two small fires a day with the associated temperature swings, when I can just run one fire slowly and constantly.
But many folks do so and it's not hard. Matter of preference.

Another big difference is that when you burn at low output you don't have flames. At higher output you do. (But again, the small fire and a pause before the next also has "no flame time".)

Another difference is that at least my BK doesn't easily allow to heat water or cook in e.g. a power outage (which we had a lot in spring in Kville). Because it's a convective top. I'm not sure about e.g. an Ashford. The jotul (or PE) allows that more easily.

Also, a heat pump is a good complement to a tube stove that does not run all that low as a BK; for the shoulder season you can easily use the heat pump (if you are willing to pay for electrons). So there is an argument for having a combo of heat pump with a stove that can't turn down so much because you won't need to. (Unless you want to do all heat with the stove.)

Finally there is a cost with a cat stove: the cat. Lifetime experience varies; some folks running 24/7 claim 12-15000 hrs, some much longer. I am not there yet.

 

[EbS-P]

Couple thoughts from someone where winters aren’t that cold. We have a Jotul and I love it. It’s 4 years old but I wouldn’t be buying another one. The design changes to meet 2020 emissions requirements especially on the F500 V3 just in my opinion are to complicated. There are other stoves out there. Just one person’s option.

This year I ran the the heatpump anytime the temp was above 45. ( I did light a fire the last two mornings as it was in the 30s I added a split or two after the kindling burned down but didn’t reload and tuned the the thermostat up around 1 pm. ). It doesn’t cost that much the house never got too hot and I saved a good bit of wood. Run this way(stove and heatpump) I don’t think I would even get a cat stove like a Blaze King. I don’t need the low turn down. If I light a fire it’s cold enough I need all the heat my stove can produce at low burn rate and fuel load. Ir I really like the secondary combustion stoves almost zero maintenance when I have a heatpump to cover the warmer times. If you want to take advantage of the tax credit I am not aware of any stove that is larger than 1.6cu ft that does not have a catalytic converter.

If I was to get a new stove today it would be a Pacific Energy T5 or T6 (I can’t get them because they don’t fit in my fireplace and are top vent) there are rumors they are retesting to meet the 75% HHV and therefore might be tax credit eligible in the future. if I wanted a good looking stove. A Drolet if I wanted the cheapest best performing option. The F45 and F55 are good stoves. I’m just not sold on them for my hearth installation.

Just some thoughts.

Evan

 

[Isaac Carlson]

It seems that marketing, epa ratings, and other specs are variable. That test load pictured by begreen is NOT simulating any load I have ever dreamed of. Our cookstove burns very clean once up to temp, but it takes a lot more than a few 2x4 scraps arranged in a neo-art-form to get it there. It looks like it is designed to maximize the air contact/flow through the wood and give a hot/clean burn for a very short time. A load like that will barely get the stove up to temp before going out. Most wood burners like to pack it tight to get a longer burn.

You have a heat pump, so going a bit small isn't a huge concern like it would be for many members here who only have wood heat. It is still a good idea to err on the high side and turn it down a bit if it gets too warm. A house like you describe should handle a bit extra heat. More btu's make the air circulate faster and that pushes more warm air to the cooler places. It's kind of like stirring a pot of water after it boils...the stirring puts more hot water in contact with the sides and the boil slows/stops until you stop stirring. Self-regulating is the term for what I am describing.

Relatively speaking:
A small stove will warm a house, but might not be comfortable
A medium stove will make it more comfortable
A big stove will make it cozy

Pick your favorite design in the heat range you need/want.

 

[begreen]

The FA264CCL is a medium-sized stove. I will assume that you are used to a catalyst and its maintenance so the Chinook should work out well. It can burn quite low and is thermostatically regulated. Otherwise, the Jotul F45 and the PE Alderlea T5 are worth considering.

 

[BKVP]

There WERE two methods for testing. Of the 157 certified heaters meeting 2020 EPA requirements, 97 were tested to an alternative test method [ATM], the remainder to method 28R. Begreen posted an image for that method. The two methods and results are NOT comparable due to what is termed "end of test". M28R is over when 100% of the fuel load is consumed. The ATM 3053 end point is when 90% of the load is consumed. With identical weight inputs, the Btu's for the ATM are inflated. That is why brochures and test reports can vary. You cannot therefore compare the results.
In December of 2021, EPA terminated the use of the broadly applicable cordwood ATM and further announced they will not renew those 97 certificates when they expire.
Tests conducted at Clearstak, an EPA approved test agency raised serious concerns about the degree of variability in the method. To date, the only Federal Reference Method for testing cordwood burning stoves is M28R.

 

[mikey]

Update you can’t go wrong with a Jotul.