resurfacing fireplace?

[Norton in the North]

We recently bought a log home with a central fire place. LOVE MY HOUSE! but of course it needs some upgrades, including the fireplace insert. The current one is a couple of decades old and double sided, although one side has been closed in. The previous owner used to throw logs right through the fire place!

The current insert is not efficient at all. Sure we get some heat from it but not nearly as much as we need on those cold winter nights. Our gas furnace is still going constantly on those cold nights. Having it run does help circulate the heat from the fireplace as there are furnace vents built in to it, so the air gets heated from the furnace, then the brick in the last few feet of the fireplace help warm the air even further.

Ok, on with what I came here to ask! I actually have a few questions about upgrading and updating our central fireplace, so be warned!

We were looking at getting the Osburn Matrix but after we fell in love with it, it may not fit! We are still working on that one, we may be able to remove some of the metal lip from the glass door side of the fireplace to get it to fit. (broken link removed to http://www.osburn-mfg.com/en/heaters/model-OB02021-description)

1 - Any recommendations for a slightly smaller insert that is still efficient but more contemporary? Just in case we can't get the Matrix to work.

Right now we have the double sided fireplace to live with until we can figure out how to replace it. I would like to finish the job that the previous owner started by closing up the back of the fireplace, which has been covered with a sheet of metal (because of his excessive wood tossing) that was included with the original insert kit. This side faces what will eventually be my extended kitchen, which I hope to be able to tackle next year. This week we are working on painting out the raw wood cupboards... FYI raw wood cabinetry and young children does not work! Splinters AND stains!

2 - Is it ok just to brick the closed side in with any type of salvaged brick? Or are there specific products that I should be using?

The area to be closed in is 33x23 that is 3 inches deep. It doesn't have to be pretty because I do plan on putting a row of cabinets and my stove along the back side of the fireplace. The actual metal door plate will be bricked in, then there is the 11 inch hearth.

If bricking this in is fire safe enough to back my stove on to the back of it (just a normal electric cooking range) then I would like to take back the hearth a bit. The base of the fireplace is 7 inches back under the hearth, not the full 11 inches that the hearth measures so there would still be 5 inches of space between the stove and the bricked in area.

I would LOVE to be able to gain this extra room in my kitchen! Seven inches along the 88 inches that is the total width of my fireplace is a lot of extra floor space!

3 - Please tell me that I can do this!?!?!

Also, my stove that I plan on putting on the back side of the fireplace is a downdraft vent, so I don't have to worry about venting in to the fireplace or custom making a huge vent fan the height of my 24 food ceilings... yay!

Finally, we want to refinish the surface of the fireplace. It currently has just the plain standard grey covering the cinderblocks and a simple 2x6 edging on the hearth and a couple feet up above the top of the insert. Oh and copper along the top side of the hearth. I would like to recover/replace it all. We have the appropriate cement (or stucco?) that was left behind from the previous owner.

4 - Can anyone recommend a good tutorial to refinish this? We would like it to be crack filled and just have an even texture over the whole thing. It's a huge job to do ourselves but I'd rather save the money we would spend getting it professionally done to use on my kitchen reno/expansion.

5 - There is powdered dye there for the stucco/cement stuff but not what we would have chosen. Any recommendations on how to get a much darker colour? Is it ok to mix different name brand dye and cement? I wouldn't mix the two types of cement, I am afraid of keeping the results consistent.

Ok, I'm going to try figure out how to upload pictures so that I can show you what I am talking about

Amber

 

[Norton in the North]

Figured out how to put in pictures!

You can see how inconsistent the surface is right now and that it is crumbling off in areas.



Amber

 

[Norton in the North]

So we were just looking at options for resurfacing our countertop and they suggested that we use stone effects for the counter. We ended up not choosing that brand for the kitchen (we chose Rust-oleum countertop transformations) but thought it might do a good job on the fireplace. The lady in the paint center didn't see any reason why we couldn't do it. Our fireplace does not get super hot to the touch on any of the areas that we would be covering.

What do you think? Would any of you try it?

I'm going to go do a web search to see if it has been done. I figure if you can put it near a hot oven, then you can put it anywhere we would need it on the fireplace. Especially with the new insert, because many of them have the decorative panels to cover the fact that it is an insert.

 

[Norton in the North]

We were going to get someone in to resurface our fireplace with stucco/cement stuff. The previous owner had bought the supplies already and left them with the house. Only problem is that what he chose as a colour to tint the mixture, is not what we would have chosen.

We have two options.

Use what was left and try find a tint that will work with the product.

OR use Stoneffects to cover the fireplace, and just use the cement stuff to fill beforehand.

Have any of you done a project like this on your own? I would really like some tips and tricks, and pictures would be great too!

Here are some pics of my central fireplace as it is, crumbling cracks, crevices and eventually to-be-replaced insert.

 

[begreen]

No need for redundant posts, just bump the thread. I'm confused by the posts. Is the shot with the fire burning before or after the one with no fire? Has there already been some stucco repair done?

I'm also concerned about that hearth. How is it constructed under that copper sheathing? Is there wood underneath? Hopefully not.

 

[Grisu]

I think it was originally a see-through fireplace before the back was closed off rather amateurish. It looks to me like a prefab; I would suggest getting a licensed chimney sweep in to see how safe it would be to put an insert in there. Since the hearth is certainly not up to code I doubt someone knowledgeable built that thing. There may be more dangers lurking in the whole construction than what we can see from here. And if the underground is chipping away, putting a new finish on top of that won't help.

 

[Norton in the North]

I apologize for the redundant post but I thought I'd scale it down a bit so it might actually get an answer. The first one had a lot in it and although it had views, I was getting no response.

The images show the front and back of the fireplace. It was originally a double sided fireplace that has glass doors on one side and mesh curtains (? don't know what they are called) on the other. It appears to be black or unlit on the one side because the original insert came with an optional metal panel that could turn it in to a single sided fireplace. The panel was put in place but never actually bricked in.

The copper covers brick and mortar right next to the fireplace, but the front edge is a decorative wood trim witch is completely covered on the top side by the copper plate. Even though this setup passed both a home inspection and fireplace inspection, I have never been a fan of having the wood there but it will stay and be used like that until we can get to the fireplace renovation (which is happening right after I am done painting my kitchen cupboards this weekend). I'm looking in to other equitable options for the hearth while I am researching the resurfacing products.

 

[begreen]

My concern seeing the images is that the non-burning side shows serious delaminating of the stucco. This makes me concerned that the original job was not well done. If so, putting a surface coat will not stop problems with the original coat showing up

 

[Norton in the North]

so we should chip all the previous stucco away and then resurface once that is done?

There is some cracking but the back has the only spot that it's chipping away. There was a really small spot there when we first moved in, but it has grown substantially since my kids got to it. Would I be correct in assuming that it should not be very easy to pick away if there was a small opening in the stucco to begin with?

I keep trying to convince my hubby to remove it completely to replace it with a woodstove instead of the wood stove insert but he isn't interested...perhaps if he is told how much work and mess it will actually be to resurface it, he might change his mind.

 

[smokedragon]

Since the hearth is certainly not up to code I doubt someone knowledgeable built that thing. There may be more dangers lurking in the whole construction

I cannot agree more.

After reading begreen's story the other day, this whole situation would scare me.

My concern seeing the images is that the non-burning side shows serious delaminating of the stucco. This makes me concerned that the original job was not well done. If so, putting a surface coat will not stop problems with the original coat showing up

I agree with this as well.

I know your hearth would not be to code, and the chimney itself may have been built incorrectly.

Definitely have a pro come out and give it thorough once over. You need that much more than advice from folks who are only looking at a few pictures.

 

[Norton in the North]

it has been seen by a log home inspector and a WETT certified fireplace inspector

edit- my husband said there was another insurance inspector in there as well that did a full inspection of the fireplace. The insurance company was extremely picky about everything in our home, including plastic dryer vents, so I am fairly certain that they didn't let anything slide when it came to our fireplace.

 

[Norton in the North]

I found a post by zub75 that mentioned "Building codes say that your wood frame with non-combustable on top is fine."

I'm having my husband check in to the code to make sure but please keep in mind that I am in BC (as was zub75), codes are a bit different.

I am absolutely in agreement with the quality of the surface of our fireplace. There is very little in the way of damage or wear in other areas of the fireplace, which is pretty good for the previous owners DIY project 25 years ago. I plan on removing the covering on the part that is crumbling away to see if there is anything underneath that I should be worried about. If not, then we will resurface that section and put a top coat on the whole thing. If not, then I guess I get my way...I would honestly like to see it gone but only time will tell what it will take to convince my hubby to remove it and replace it with a wood stove rather than an insert.

May be once the new insert is in, and have the WETT inspection completed, we will find out if there are any changes that need to be done. Perhaps we are just grandfathered in because of the age of the fireplace? Not exactly sure how it works with code for fireplaces.

 

[Grisu]

it has been seen by a log home inspector and a WETT certified fireplace inspector

edit- my husband said there was another insurance inspector in there as well that did a full inspection of the fireplace. The insurance company was extremely picky about everything in our home, including plastic dryer vents, so I am fairly certain that they didn't let anything slide when it came to our fireplace.

I am really surprised that this is apparently acceptable. Did they say anything about putting an insert in there? Even a flush insert will partially sit on the copper-sheet and as copper is a great heat conductor I would not feel comfortable with the wood directly underneath. Should also be against hearth requirements of most (all) inserts.

Since you said your opening was 23"x33" and you wanted a modern-looking flush mount you may check out the Pacific Energy Neo 2.5. They are just coming out with it and are a bit skimpy about the exact specs but you could give them a call. Another kind of modern-looking one would be the Lopi Cape Cod insert. If your house has good insulation they can probably heat up to 1500 sqft although that cathedral ceiling may make things tough.

Do you already have a supply of seasoned wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20%? Any modern stove will need that to operate properly and safely.

P.S. Another possible option may be this one: (broken link removed)

 

[hiites]

I once remodeled a house for an aunt of mine that had a very dated brick fireplace built in the '60s. She wanted the house redone with a "southwest" look. I covered the brick with concrete board and then covered that surface with a product called Quikwall, made by Quikcrete. It is meant to be used over cinderblocks that have been stacked with no mortar. It's a fiberglass reinforced concrete. I tinted it to sort of look like adobe. Sorry I couldn't scan these pictures so I took pictures of pictures.

 

[smokedragon]

Building codes say that your wood frame with non-combustable on top is fine.

Just because code says it is fine, doesn't mean it gives me peace of mind when the stove is running while I sleep.

This code may also be in reference to zero clearance units. IF that is the case, you would have to replace with another zero clearance unit.

 

[Grisu]

I am wondering whether those inspectors take a bit of a leap in interpreting the code. I think I found the relevant section:

9.22.9.1. Clearance to the Fireplace Opening

(1) Combustible material shall not be placed on or near the face of a fireplace within 150 mm of the fireplace opening, except that where the combustible material projects more than 38 mm out from the face of the fireplace above the opening, such material shall be at least 300 mm above the top of the opening."

http://akloc.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/building-code-section-9-23-framing-obc.pdf

It does not say that a non-combustible shield would reduce that clearance. Maybe the wood is just covering the sides but I would be curious what is underneath that shield.

 

[weatherguy]

I am wondering whether those inspectors take a bit of a leap in interpreting the code. I think I found the relevant section:

9.22.9.1. Clearance to the Fireplace Opening

(1) Combustible material shall not be placed on or near the face of a fireplace within 150 mm of the fireplace opening, except that where the combustible material projects more than 38 mm out from the face of the fireplace above the opening, such material shall be at least 300 mm above the top of the opening."

http://akloc.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/building-code-section-9-23-framing-obc.pdf

It does not say that a non-combustible shield would reduce that clearance. Maybe the wood is just covering the sides but I would be curious what is underneath that shield.

I think she said what is was

"The copper covers brick and mortar right next to the fireplace, but the front edge is a decorative wood trim witch is completely covered on the top side by the copper plate"

If push comes to shove she can just remove the wood piece.

 

[Grisu]

I think she said what is was

"The copper covers brick and mortar right next to the fireplace, but the front edge is a decorative wood trim witch is completely covered on the top side by the copper plate"

If push comes to shove she can just remove the wood piece.

Thanks weatherguy,

I missed that. Still don't like the idea to put the copper right on top of the wood. It will probably have to come off anyway when an insert is put in to reach the required clearances.

The problem with putting an insert in that just fits will be to have room to attach the liner. Maybe the backside entry will help but I hope the installer comes out first to take a look at it before ordering an insert.

 

[elmoleaf]

Possible approaches to deal with aesthetics of chimney (sorry, have no experience with inserts):
1. Patch the delaminating stucco and repair cracks. Paint all stucco to color of your choice. This is a frugal minimal effort approach.
2. Remove all loose delaminating stucco to get down to solid material. Add base mortar coat and apply thin stone veneer. Could be done only at lower chimney area, with upper portion simply treated like option 1.
3. The whole nine yards: demolish it all (assuming it doesn't contain a flue for a basement boiler?). The chimney takes up lots of floor space, although it does have some thermal mass. Install freestanding wood stove.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Our fireplace looked like Hiites, we easily refaced it with these sheets of stones, they are 1/2 to 3/4 inch thick, and made a world of difference. Cost for this space was $180. You have considerable more space to cover. Good luck......

 

[Norton in the North]

Thanks so much for the input. Love the pictures. The stone sheets are great, would be a good option for the bottom and have a colour coordinating paint or stucco for the top once I crack fill and make it an even texture, or use the concrete sheets on but I would have to research to see if this is available here.

We do not plan on keeping the copper or wood in place on the bottom and replacing the top wood with something more contemporary. I wanted to change that out anyway but I just have to put my kitchen in first so that my colour scheme is decided before I go changing something that would be hard to take back if it doesn't go with the rest of the décor that I decide on.

My fireplace does have the gas furnace exhaust in the stack as well but obviously enclosed separately. It also has furnace vents on the bottom and just above the top layer of wood.

I live on the 56th parallel north, so we don't want to pay an arm and a leg for the gas heat to run as our primary heat source. I appreciate your concern and as I've mentioned, this is a concern for us too but I can't just take it off unless I have something to replace the wood, because the wood is part of the hearth and would make the hearth too short. We should be able to get the project started in the next couple of weeks. Luckily the weather right now has been just above or below freezing, so we don't have to have the fireplace burning all the time and the furnace isn't running constantly.

Also thanks for your advice for making sure we have enough seasoned dry wood. The previous owner left behind three years worth of wood, enough for this type of fireplace! My husband has turned in to a bit of a wood hoarder since we moved in to this house, he has cut and split, conservatively speaking, another year of wood in the past month. I think I'm getting tennis elbow from helping him cut and stack wood! lol

We will be having someone come in once we are ready to purchase the new insert. We definitely want to know whether we can put an insert in as is or if the one that is in there has to come out. We are still looking at our options. We have all summer to decide.

Is it possible to cut a hole where the current insert is and make it a bit bigger to put a free standing wood stove in there? It's hard to remove the whole thing because a stack still has to be there for the furnace. We can remove the whole thing all together but still need to vent the furnace so would need something there still. We are still arguing the point. We're basically looking for an equitable solution to last us the next 5-10 years.

 

[begreen]

Gas furnaces can sometimes be vented horizontally if there is a power vent on the furnace. Sometimes these can be retrofitted. High efficiency condensing gas furnaces use a PVC pipe that can vent out the side of the building. I don't think the idea of opening up fireplace is a good one, unless professionally done. There is a lot of mass above it unless that is not all brick.

 

[Norton in the North]

Our furnace is getting on in years, so I doubt it is HE, it doesn't even have a summer fan on it. We are doing cosmetic changes right now and will upgrade the furnace and water system once our full basement is finished. Right now we are stuck with what we have, which most likely means that it has to be vented as is. We have a new deck that wraps around 3 sides of the house, so I can't see putting a vent on any of those sides and the last is the furthest away from the furnace, unless it can go out horizontally then vertically up to the roof on the side of the house?

 

[Dave A.]

Gas furnaces can sometimes be vented horizontally if there is a power vent on the furnace. Sometimes these can be retrofitted.

Pretty sure power vents can be added to furnaces/boilers/water heaters, etc. that were not originally designed to run with them. Power Vent equipment will probably cost several hundred dollars plus the installation, so sometimes it makes more sense to just replace the old equipment with something newer and more efficient. But it is possible to do it, from what I've read anyway if you want to eliminate a vertical flue.