Rethinking ideas - Pelpro PP60-B operational considerations

[FlyFish'n]

I am looking over some things here and if I set up this pellet stove I have (Pelpro PP60-B) that will alleviate a lot of "stuff" I am trying to figure out how to work through.

The catch to it is the heat output of this is very low and the electrical requirement is a downer. So those are major considerations, more so the low heat output, in my scenario.

In working through considerations - a few questions:

1. I can't find a fuel consumption rate/burn rate spec. With the PP60-B running on max (continuous) - is there any realistic estimate of how much weight of pellets it goes through in some period of time (like 6hrs, 12hrs, 24hrs)? The heat output is up to 35k BTU and its spec'd at heating 1500sq ft, with an "EPA efficiency rating" at 79.4%, if that gives some indication of burn rate.

What I am needing to get down to is if we run this around the clock for a few weeks or a month when it gets real cold - how much fuel is it going to burn = how much weight of pellets should I have stored to get through? I am imagining buying in bulk - by the pallet possibly. It sounds like that might be 1-1.5 tons.

However, if I can buy in bulk at a lower quantity amount (say, 4-500lbs at a time) -
A. Will that get me enough fuel? and
B. What is the cost difference (if there is any)? If it is still a better buy to get a whole ton and is cost-effective to do so then that might be the way to go. I suppose the answer here lies in what is available locally, first.

2. I can't find a spec on vertical flue height. I can find specs on horizontal runs and angles, but I don't see much that pertains to vertical rise. The pipe I have is Selkirk 3vp, if it matters (3"). At this stage I don't have any reason to stay with Selkirk, per se, nor staying with 3", per se, other than it would let me use some of what I have, but I don't really have much to be a critical factor if there is "a better way".

What I would be looking at is about 14' of vertical and 4' of 45deg run with 2x 45deg angles. There would be no horizontal run, other than the port off the back of the PP60-B to a 45deg, slope run to another 45deg to the 14' vertical run. Would this be adequate? Would 4" be noticeably better than 3?

 

[johneh]

First, a pellet stove is a space heater, not a whole house furnace!
Pellet usage, depends on the output of the stove needed to keep you comfortable
my stove on a normal winter day here uses 3/4 of a 40 lb bag (outside temp -10 to -15
at -20 to -30 a full 40 lb bag in24 hours below that 1 1/2 and on occasion 2 bags
in 24 hours. What yours will be I have no idea. It also depends on your home how tight
and insulated it is .
I buy my pellets in bulk 3 skids a year 4 1/2 ton or 225 bags more than I use in a year
that way I do not have to worry about shortages or price increases.
here is an installation manual section 8 is all about chimneys

https://downloads.hearthnhome.com/installManuals/Owners-Manual-PelPro-PP60.pdf

 

[FlyFish'n]

here is an installation manual section 8 is all about chimneys

https://downloads.hearthnhome.com/installManuals/Owners-Manual-PelPro-PP60.pdf

Thanks for the info. I would assume the one I have would fit the criteria of what you are suggesting of it being a "space heater". However, I would be hopeful this one might put out more heat than an electric space heater, certainly it would use a lot less electricity as it is burning pellets for heat and electric to move air and run electronics, not create heat.

I'm looking at the heat output of some of the other pellet stoves on the market also - lots of bases to cross and look at.

It sounds like from some other discussions on the forums here there are some here that use pellet/multi-fuel stoves as primary, or at least significant percentage, of their home heating. I don't see why it wouldn't work - so long as it is planned. And that gets back to the questions I posed.

My goal is to have an energy source here that we can rely on that is independent of utilities. If we lost utilities - could we get by? Right now we have electricity and cooking covered, but we don't have a secondary heat source. Whether we can get a pellet stove to work as a suitable secondary heat source is what I am trying to get to the bottom of. No matter what the drawbacks are, there are factors I am looking at that I'm not discussing here that play (significantly) in to the viability of it. It boils down to time and availability. I can probably get a pallet of pellets and vent a pellet stove a zillion times easier and quicker than the alternative. And I don't have to split wood.

 

[FlyFish'n]

my stove on a normal winter day here uses 3/4 of a 40 lb bag (outside temp -10 to -15
at -20 to -30 a full 40 lb bag in24 hours below that 1 1/2 and on occasion 2 bags
in 24 hours.

What stove do you have? I'll look up the specs and compare.

Doing the math on your high end "2x 40lb bags per 24hrs/day" estimate - a 1 ton pallet would go 25 days, a 1.5 ton pallet would go 37.5 days. That would be a good starting point on having fuel stored.

 

[FlyFish'n]

here is an installation manual section 8 is all about chimneys
https://downloads.hearthnhome.com/installManuals/Owners-Manual-PelPro-PP60.pdf

I quoted this earlier and realize I didn't speak to it.

That is a different manual than the one I got.

The only detail I got between the two of them that assists in the venting question is that 15' or more of venting they recommend going to 4". So that sounds like what I need.

Each 45deg bend would add the equivalent of 1ft of straight pipe and the vertical run is about 14'. So that alone is ~16' plus the 45deg run which I estimate at 4ft (they don't spec the "length equivalency" of straight pipe horizontally [1/4in rise per ft angle], angled, or vertical so I assume 4ft at 45deg is the same as 4ft vertical). With that "math" that is 20ft of "pipe".

 

[johneh]

However, I would be hopeful this one might put out more heat than an electric space heater, certainly it would use a lot less electricity as it is burning pellets for heat and electric to move air and run electronics, not create heat.

Pellet stoves cost less to run and get heat from than electric heaters
depending on your cost for electricity.

My goal is to have an energy source here that we can rely on that is independent of utilities. If we lost utilities - could we get by? Right now we have electricity and cooking covered, but we don't have a secondary heat source.

A pellet stove needs electricity to work. You will need a backup power source
for outages. You may be better off with a wood stove .
multi-fuel stoves are a whole different beast, corn costs more on average
need a different type of stove pipe. Sidecar you want to jump in here?

 

[Jeremy6500]

My house is heated with 2 pellet stoves (well, one stove and one multi-fuel furnace to be specific). My house is a 2200 sq foot ranch and is shaped in an "L". I have a stove at each end of the "L" in living room areas. The "L" hallway between them has bedrooms, bathrooms etc. If the doors are left open the bedrooms, while definitely cooler, stay comfortable.

I live in the country and our power goes out from time to time. We also are not the first ones they get back up and running. I run my pellet stoves off a 2500 watt inverter generator.

What is your current heating setup. A pellet stove is not going to give you as even heat as a central heat system will because it is a space heater, but it could work well for a temporary backup/emergency heat source if you have backup electricity as well.

As far as pellet usage. A good estimate is about 1 40lb bag every 24 hours. This will vary some stove by stove and due to tons of different variables, but it is usually about that. If you want to figure out the range the stove would use, plug it into an extension cord outside, Put 2 bags in it and run it on high for 24 hours. Then do the same thing with it set on low. In comfort mode it is possible that it would use less than on low continuously since it can turn off and on, but during cold months it will likely be between the 2.

 

[clancey]

Interesting experiment you suggested and may I ask--why plugging in the extension cord outside-new at this and I have a wood burner but some of those pellet stoves are neat and easy to use..Not knowing anything it sounds good a 40 pound bag in 24 hours and the darling feeds itself out of a hopper--not bad--better than some pets I have had.. lol lol In the city here I have a stand by generator back up that I bought many years ago and these are very nice too.. enjoyed..clancey

 

[Jeremy6500]

Interesting experiment you suggested and may I ask--why plugging in the extension cord outside-new at this and I have a wood burner but some of those pellet stoves are neat and easy to use..Not knowing anything it sounds good a 40 pound bag in 24 hours and the darling feeds itself out of a hopper--not bad--better than some pets I have had.. lol lol In the city here I have a stand by generator back up that I bought many years ago and these are very nice too.. enjoyed..clancey

Pellet stoves take electricity to run the blower, auger, ignitor etc. The OP inherited a new stove, but isn't sure about pellet usage etc. By running it outside there is no need for installing venting and cutting holes in walls/roofs, just to find out it may not be something that fits the need.

 

[clancey]

Oh I see--thanks for that...clancey

 

[FlyFish'n]

I live in the country and our power goes out from time to time. We also are not the first ones they get back up and running. I run my pellet stoves off a 2500 watt inverter generator.

What is your current heating setup. A pellet stove is not going to give you as even heat as a central heat system will because it is a space heater, but it could work well for a temporary backup/emergency heat source if you have backup electricity as well.

We have several generators and power inverters (for 120vAC off vehicles/12v batteries). Electricity isn't an issue, so long as we have fuel.

Conventional heat is natural gas. That is also the primary generator fuel.

Generators are as follows:
15kw mutli-fuel rotary (Honda GX690 engine, Mecc Alte alternator)
2600w multi-fiel rotary (cheap, I think it is a Wen?)
2200w gasoline inverter (Honda EU2200i)

If we lost Natural Gas we would loose heat and be on gasoline or propane for generator fuel. The little Honda EU2200i is actually a stronger generator than the "2600w rotary", but runs gasoline only at the moment. However, if we conserve on power we have about 2 weeks' worth gasoline for it.

With the little EU2200i generator - it throttles up with higher wattage loads (that is what inverters do). I don't know what the running load of a pellet stove would do to the draw, but for examples' sake the sticker on the one I have (PP60-B) is .9 amps running. That is 108 watts. I am imagining that (if it is the only load) would be low enough to keep the generator at idle. With other loads like ceiling fans, furnace fan, and refrigerators (of course, the load would certainly vary) - that would add quite a bit of power. I was setting up the 2600w rotary and tuning it a couple weeks ago and had around 300 watts with ceiling fans + lights. So add 100 to that for the pellet stove and thats about 400. With a running load on the EU22200i up to 1800w that is 1400w of head room, of course with higher fuel consumption the further up the throttle goes.

That doesn't even touch on what happens if some electrical/electronic part of a pellet stove fails. Except for the Wiseway GW1949 pellet stove that doesn't use any electricity - I think every pellet or multi-fuel stove is electronically controlled = more points of failure.

 

[clancey]

Yea I checked into that when I first started looking at the different stoves..The wiseway was the only one that In found that did not need electric service. I ordered one of those because of the fact of the clean burning and easier to handle with the pellets but as i began to look into all the different types i quickly changed my mind..But then I found with the pellets that it is possible to get a electric battery back up so decided on that but then again I changed my mind imaging a string of batteries going across the back of the stove in a emergency and I am a dud when it comes to anything mechanical and my late husband would hide anything mechanical from me--kidding...But some of those pellets stoves are beautiful and so easy to use and why not have a pellet furnace for to me this seems like even less work but back to the flyfishers problem he wants a secondary consideration and he seems to like the idea of pellets why not a pellet furnace and a LP tank buried in the ground for a stand by generator... Just over thinking here most likely...and also there is the money aspect for we are all poor but just thinking...old clancey

 

[Jeremy6500]

Yea I checked into that when I first started looking at the different stoves..The wiseway was the only one that In found that did not need electric service. I ordered one of those because of the fact of the clean burning and easier to handle with the pellets but as i began to look into all the different types i quickly changed my mind..But then I found with the pellets that it is possible to get a electric battery back up so decided on that but then again I changed my mind imaging a string of batteries going across the back of the stove in a emergency and I am a dud when it comes to anything mechanical and my late husband would hide anything mechanical from me--kidding...But some of those pellets stoves are beautiful and so easy to use and why not have a pellet furnace for to me this seems like even less work but back to the flyfishers problem he wants a secondary consideration and he seems to like the idea of pellets why not a pellet furnace and a LP tank buried in the ground for a stand by generator... Just over thinking here most likely...and also there is the money aspect for we are all poor but just thinking...old clancey

I mentioned my other pellet stove is actually a multi-fuel furnace (USSC/American Harvest 6500) that the previous owner just setup to blow into the room (see pic). Prior to next winter the plan is to move this to my utility room and plumb it in to duct work for central heat. Then the one in my kitchen area will get moved to where this one was. While the multi-fuel furnace shouldn't have any issue heating the whole house, having a stove in the back room will be nice. That will be at the very end of the ducted heat run so the flow may not be quite as good. The stove can be used to supplement if needed.

A multi-fuel furnace could be a good heat source for the OP during a power outage, but they inherited a new PP60 so the $$ for it is a lot less than purchasing a furnace.

I looked in to propane when I was looing at my central heat options. From a cost perspective it was more expensive with mandatory fills, tank rental etc. Plus I already had the multi-fuel furnace. Just had to fix it (kinda like everything in the house when I bought it). Everything in my house is electric right now. I will be piping in a gas run for the stove since the wife prefers a gas range, but that will be fueled by a couple of 100lb tanks that I can take locally to fill.

 

[FlyFish'n]

why not a pellet furnace and a LP tank buried in the ground for a stand by generator

Won't work here.

Any kind of furnace, other than natural gas (which we have) or electric (we could, in theory, replace with one, but would make us go "backwards") is out of the question. That is a ducted central air furnace. They make them that are fueled in numerous ways (multi-fuel, pellet, wood, oil, and - outdoor wood furnaces/boilers with heat exchanger furnaces inside). If we were investing in a primary energy set up then these may be something to look in to, but not as a secondary/back up. There are a lot of considerations, road blocks, and challenges that I am trying to work through that aren't discussed here - they mostly come back to availability, time, and effort. At the end of the day - we have no alternative heat and need to get some method of alternative heat.

What is an acceptable means to do so is the real challenge. For something to even be considered it should be attainable/realistic. That is where I question the heat output, all other considerations aside, with pellets right now - can it be a legitimate heat source, first off? With the stove we have - the PP60 - my gut feeling is "no". I don't trust the square footage ratings on these things, and Pelpro is a bottom-rung Chinese import - even less of a reason to trust their supposed ratings. With that having been said, it is "rated" at 1500sq ft. The house here is a bit under 3000sq ft. Stepping up to a larger pellet stove would get us maybe in to the mid-2000sq ft capacity on the supposed "rating". That should tell me that they put out more heat and I would imagine they would, but I don't trust the sq footage ratings. If it is 40deg F at night and 60deg F during the day then maybe the sq footage ratings are accurate. However, if it is -25deg F at night and -10deg F during the day - I am not sure if even a "large" pellet stove could keep a room warm, let alone trying to raise the temp of much of the rest of the house.

On a bit of a twist on the discussion, I have looked in to wood stoves. I called several places in the past ~3-4 weeks to see what was available then. One of the guys I talked to seemed to be pretty knowledgeable - he had several years of install experience, not just sales. His comments on heat output were to look more at the square footage rating of these units than the BTU's. His reason for that was that the BTU ratings were extremely loose and unreliable - there were too many factors that went in to how many BTU's you got out of any said stove (wood type, moisture level, flue draft, etc, etc). So his suggestion was to look at the sq footage ratings. I can understand the point he was making, and in trusting what he was telling me was in good faith based on legitimate experience - I have to put some weight on the thought, but the "perfectionist" and "numbers" mind in my head doesn't like that - if you don't get the BTU's you're not going to heat the square footage. I'll make the analogy that its like the difference between a 4 cylinder engine in an SUV and an 8 cylinder engine in pickup truck - if you're pulling a boat up a slope the 8 cylinder truck is going to pull that boat up the hill a ton easier. That analogy is, of course, leaving out the strength of the drivetrain, weight of the tow vehicles, wheel bases, etc - I'm just speaking to the pulling power - the energy implemented to maintain speed up the hill, all other factors being equal (in the analogy, to simplify, even though there are so many other variables to the bigger picture in reality). With heating - if the BTU's aren't getting out of a stove they aren't going in to the room/structure. You could light a candle in a stove spec'd at 500,000 BTU output and 5000sq ft heating capacity - but its not going to heat 5000sq feet running on the candle.

 

[Jeremy6500]

Won't work here.

Any kind of furnace, other than natural gas (which we have) or electric (we could, in theory, replace with one, but would make us go "backwards") is out of the question. That is a ducted central air furnace. They make them that are fueled in numerous ways (multi-fuel, pellet, wood, oil, and - outdoor wood furnaces/boilers with heat exchanger furnaces inside). If we were investing in a primary energy set up then these may be something to look in to, but not as a secondary/back up. There are a lot of considerations, road blocks, and challenges that I am trying to work through that aren't discussed here - they mostly come back to availability, time, and effort. At the end of the day - we have no alternative heat and need to get some method of alternative heat.

What is an acceptable means to do so is the real challenge. For something to even be considered it should be attainable/realistic. That is where I question the heat output, all other considerations aside, with pellets right now - can it be a legitimate heat source, first off? With the stove we have - the PP60 - my gut feeling is "no". I don't trust the square footage ratings on these things, and Pelpro is a bottom-rung Chinese import - even less of a reason to trust their supposed ratings. With that having been said, it is "rated" at 1500sq ft. The house here is a bit under 3000sq ft. Stepping up to a larger pellet stove would get us maybe in to the mid-2000sq ft capacity on the supposed "rating". That should tell me that they put out more heat and I would imagine they would, but I don't trust the sq footage ratings. If it is 40deg F at night and 60deg F during the day then maybe the sq footage ratings are accurate. However, if it is -25deg F at night and -10deg F during the day - I am not sure if even a "large" pellet stove could keep a room warm, let alone trying to raise the temp of much of the rest of the house.

On a bit of a twist on the discussion, I have looked in to wood stoves. I called several places in the past ~3-4 weeks to see what was available then. One of the guys I talked to seemed to be pretty knowledgeable - he had several years of install experience, not just sales. His comments on heat output were to look more at the square footage rating of these units than the BTU's. His reason for that was that the BTU ratings were extremely loose and unreliable - there were too many factors that went in to how many BTU's you got out of any said stove (wood type, moisture level, flue draft, etc, etc). So his suggestion was to look at the sq footage ratings. I can understand the point he was making, and in trusting what he was telling me was in good faith based on legitimate experience - I have to put some weight on the thought, but the "perfectionist" and "numbers" mind in my head doesn't like that - if you don't get the BTU's you're not going to heat the square footage. I'll make the analogy that its like the difference between a 4 cylinder engine in an SUV and an 8 cylinder engine in pickup truck - if you're pulling a boat up a slope the 8 cylinder truck is going to pull that boat up the hill a ton easier. That analogy is, of course, leaving out the strength of the drivetrain, weight of the tow vehicles, wheel bases, etc - I'm just speaking to the pulling power - the energy implemented to maintain speed up the hill, all other factors being equal (in the analogy, to simplify, even though there are so many other variables to the bigger picture in reality). With heating - if the BTU's aren't getting out of a stove they aren't going in to the room/structure. You could light a candle in a stove spec'd at 500,000 BTU output and 5000sq ft heating capacity - but its not going to heat 5000sq feet running on the candle.

Can you define the requirements for your emergency heat source? How much of the house needs to be able to be heated during the emergency timeframe? Due to the space heater nature of a pellet stove, even if you get one with the adequate BTU/sq ft rating for your 3000 sq ft house, you would not be able to heat the whole house in 9 out of 10 cases.

At my old house I had an old open air wood burning fireplace. Our power went out in the dead of winter for a number of days. The fireplace did fine since my expectation was just to keep the living room/kitchen/dinning room area warm. We all camped out in the living room for those days.

 

[FlyFish'n]

Can you define the requirements for your emergency heat source? How much of the house needs to be able to be heated during the emergency timeframe? Due to the space heater nature of a pellet stove, even if you get one with the adequate BTU/sq ft rating for your 3000 sq ft house, you would not be able to heat the whole house in 9 out of 10 cases.

At my old house I had an old open air wood burning fireplace. Our power went out in the dead of winter for a number of days. The fireplace did fine since my expectation was just to keep the living room/kitchen/dinning room area warm. We all camped out in the living room for those days.

The main room/area of the house is an open vaulted 2 story ceiling. The upstairs rooms are all connected to that same vaulted ceiling space next to an open balcony. The ceiling is sloped from the full open ceiling height over the balcony and 2nd floor "hallway" (not really, its all open - just back behind the balcony a bit) down to the side of the house an existing fireplace sits at. Behind the fireplace wall is another room with a 12' vaulted ceiling. The "wall" the fireplace is on is not a boxed off wall - both sides of the fireplace are very open as that goes in to the room behind the fireplace (optional room, without it then the fireplace wall would be an outside wall). The point is - the "main area" of the house (living room with vaulted ceiling, kitchen, and front of the house to the dining room and front door, and up to the balcony area above) is all wide open = easy to direct heat through with fans, if needed.

The further out rooms wouldn't get adequate heat, nor the basement. So that is just a fact we would have to live with. However, with starting with such an "open" main part of the house - that significantly increases the efficiency of moving heat around more of the house from a central location than not, but I realize that will have its limit.

That is where I imagine we can get a high-heat output unit in the main part of the house to "work" - the open'ness of the floor plan is there to do it. That also means there isn't a way to "close off" an area to sacrifice the rest of the house in order to keep a higher temperature in a smaller area.

The house was built in the early 2000's and is pretty "tight", but not not absolutely. We could help things along by sealing crawl space and attic accesses better.

As to the fireplace idea - we do have a wood burning fireplace. However, that is an extremely inefficient method of heating. Yeah, its better than nothing, but there isn't any way to control the fire and an enormous amount of energy is lost up the flue - both from the fire and the draft a fire would create that would pull in outside cooler air to replace what goes up the flue. That is where a "stove" comes in - any kind - they are able to control fire and harness a lot more of the energy that fire creates by blowing it in to the room, not loosing it up the flue, and not drawing nearly as much air up the flue pulling in outside air in to the house (and there are outside air kits you can use that allow outside air, not inside air, to be used for combustion = wouldn't pull any air out of the house, but would pull in much colder air which would drop the burning efficiency as there would be energy lost in heating up the colder air for it to combust in the firebox - no matter how you heat that outside air, running it through some kind of ducting heated by the stove, or just running it in to the box cold - the temperature change consumes energy that otherwise isn't going to heating the room air).

 

[Jeremy6500]

The main room/area of the house is an open vaulted 2 story ceiling. The upstairs rooms are all connected to that same vaulted ceiling space next to an open balcony. The ceiling is sloped from the full open ceiling height over the balcony and 2nd floor "hallway" (not really, its all open - just back behind the balcony a bit) down to the side of the house an existing fireplace sits at. Behind the fireplace wall is another room with a 12' vaulted ceiling. The "wall" the fireplace is on is not a boxed off wall - both sides of the fireplace are very open as that goes in to the room behind the fireplace (optional room, without it then the fireplace wall would be an outside wall). The point is - the "main area" of the house (living room with vaulted ceiling, kitchen, and front of the house to the dining room and front door, and up to the balcony area above) is all wide open = easy to direct heat through with fans, if needed.

The further out rooms wouldn't get adequate heat, nor the basement. So that is just a fact we would have to live with. However, with starting with such an "open" main part of the house - that significantly increases the efficiency of moving heat around more of the house from a central location than not, but I realize that will have its limit.

That is where I imagine we can get a high-heat output unit in the main part of the house to "work" - the open'ness of the floor plan is there to do it. That also means there isn't a way to "close off" an area to sacrifice the rest of the house in order to keep a higher temperature in a smaller area.

The house was built in the early 2000's and is pretty "tight", but not not absolutely. We could help things along by sealing crawl space and attic accesses better.

As to the fireplace idea - we do have a wood burning fireplace. However, that is an extremely inefficient method of heating. Yeah, its better than nothing, but there isn't any way to control the fire and an enormous amount of energy is lost up the flue - both from the fire and the draft a fire would create that would pull in outside cooler air to replace what goes up the flue. That is where a "stove" comes in - any kind - they are able to control fire and harness a lot more of the energy that fire creates by blowing it in to the room, not loosing it up the flue, and not drawing nearly as much air up the flue pulling in outside air in to the house (and there are outside air kits you can use that allow outside air, not inside air, to be used for combustion = wouldn't pull any air out of the house, but would pull in much colder air which would drop the burning efficiency as there would be energy lost in heating up the colder air for it to combust in the firebox - no matter how you heat that outside air, running it through some kind of ducting heated by the stove, or just running it in to the box cold - the temperature change consumes energy that otherwise isn't going to heating the room air).

With what sounds like the openness of the floorplan where you are talking it sounds like a pellet stove could do a decent job. As far as if the PP60 would do it, I don't know. My PP130 puts out quite a bit of heat and I would say it would heat your area, but it is rated for a much higher BTU and sq footage than your PP60.

If you think a pellet stove of some kind would be good for what you want you could always start out with trying the PP60. If it works, great. If it doesn't work then you sell it purchase a bigger one. As long as you do the venting etc well, it should be pretty easy to adapt the PP60 venting to a different model.