Santa Fe Ignitor - intermittent trouble

[whit]

The Santa Fe has stopped several times in the last few days. Seemed like it might be in part from ash buildup in the pot insulating the pellets from ignition. Now I'm not sure. Just saw it with fresh pellets in the pot, fans running, but not igniting. Dumped the pellets and cleaned the pot. It then started putting more pellets in the pot without my hitting the restart button. But the igniter wasn't getting fully hot. So dumped the pellets again. This time hit the rest. The igniter heated up to its full red glow and the fire started.

Meanwhile I'd pulled the spare igniter out of the cabinet where it's been for years. Definitely the identical part on the igniter end. But the leads are way shorter than on the original. So I'd have to splice them in over the ash tray. Wondering (1) if the intermittent behavior of the current igniter is a fault in it or somewhere else (some say they're all or nothing, either fully fail or work), and (2) whether splicing the leads over the ash pan is safe. Not at all sure how heat resistant the standard wire nuts and tape are that I have on hand. Probably safest to find another replacement part with the leads the original length?

Update: I see there's such a thing as a "Quadrafire ceramic wire nut" (http://www.stove-parts-unlimited.com/Wire-Nut-for-Quadrafire-Pellet-Stoves-p/812-0730.htm) - a specialty part, or something generically available in the right hardware store?

 

[kappel15]

The older Quads had ceramic wire nuts on the igniter harness. You may be able to find them some place. And yes, the igniter either works or it doesn't. No in between. One thing to do is to use a mirror and flashlight . Stick mirror in pot and shine flashlight in it. Look at the bottom front of pot. There is a slit there for the igniter. Sometimes it can get blocked, or partially blocked. stopping ignition. As far as dumping pellets on its own, it may not have been done with the initial feed when you opened the door to clean, and stopped the auger. kap

 

[whit]

Ah, didn't realize there was a slit there. Thanks for the advice. Pulling the drawer out and getting down on the floor I can see the fire up through it. So the slot at present's clear.

The thing that puzzles me is, after cleaning it started the augur, but when I checked the igniter it definitely wasn't up to temperature. That was with the door closed. Yet another cleaning and a reset and the igniter came on up to red hot. Various error conditions can stop both augur and igniter, shutting the stove down. But did I run into an odd one where the igniter is shut off while the augur's left to run? That, or maybe the igniter's in a rare state right on the edge of failing.

I do see that various size ceramic/porcelain wire nuts are available generically. Just not sure if I've got an igniter in a strange state or something stranger going on.

 

[kappel15]

I don't know how you can see the slit with the igniter and the igniter housing in the way. With your description of issues going on, you may have other issues, not a bad igniter. As I said before, they either work or don't, no on the edge etc. Couple things to try. Unplug stove and make sure control box is seated properly. Sometimes vibration can work them slightly loose, and they can do weird things. Make sure firepot thermocouple is touching the inside end of its cover. Make sure igniter wire harness connections are good. Stay in touch. kap

 

[tjnamtiw]

On your first try at dumping pellets, like Kap said, you probably interrupted the cycle and when you closed the door not only did it resume feeding pellets but it also put power back onto the igniter, which had started to cool down. It probably never got back up to full temperature before the end of the cycle or when you looked at it.
If you weren't aware of the igniter slit to clean regularly, how about the 8 small holes? 4 in the front of the pot and 4 at the base of the sloped bottom? They need regular cleaning when you scrape and dump the burn pot. I use a .38 caliber bore brush (I think that's what it is. Maybe a .32 caliber). Those are key to a good healthy burn.
If it still sometimes gets red hot and other times not, I'd look for a loose or corroded connection.
As to seeing the igniter slit from under the stove, I'm as baffled as Kap. I wonder if you are looking at the bottom dump valve saging down a little too much. The gap opposite the hinge should not be anymore than the thickness of a dime. I adjust mine as tight as possible so that I can still pull the dump without excessive effort.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Also the problem with the stove stopping on its own several times could be a completely unrelated problem such as a new batch of longer pellets that feed fewer pellets per cycle than before or longer pellets bridging at the top of the chute. That a flashlight and mirror and look up the chute at the end of the auger. It should be completely clear with nothing wedged in the auger or to the right of the auger.
Clean out that slit and those 8 holes for starters. You did pull the combustion blower and clean out in the housing real good before starting the season, right?

 

[whit]

The small holes I've always cleaned religiously. The dump valve is if anything a bit too tight, not loose. I can't see the igniter slit directly, but can see the fire's light shining through the slit onto the igniter. Just never realized that slit was there, since it's so out of sight.

When I opened the stove the first time and dumpled the pellets/cleaned the pot, the stove had definitely stopped trying to ignite them. It was more than a normal ignition load, and the igniter just wasn't hot. The control box is seated tight. No visible corrosion on the wires, and the connections are tight.

 

[kappel15]

Check thermocouple next.

 

[whit]

I am burning lower quality pellets at present. Very short, and leaving clinkers in the pot fairly quickly. They feed fine though. Alternating American Wood Fibers "Premium Hardwood Pellet Fuel" and Permier Pellet Corporation "Nature's Own Fuel." Wouldn't recommend either. The first is worse for clinkers; the second is way small. Be glad to finish them and get into the Barefoots.

 

[tjnamtiw]

When you start up, are there any lights on inside the control box?

You also should UNPLUG THE STOVE. Then remove the control box, rub the contacts with an eraser, clean it off, replace it and then plug the stove back in. See if the igniter stays on longer.

 

[whit]

Check thermocouple next.

One parts dealer's site says the most common symptom of a bad thermocouple is a failure to keep feeding pellets once the fire's started. Can it also cause a failure to keep heating pellets with the igniter prior to ignition? Seems like a problem in the opposite direction - failing to sense accurately at the low end when it's hot enough to be a fire, instead of sensing accurately at the high end that it's cooled down enough to call for more pellets. In both cases inaccurately reading it as hotter than it is would cause the problem, but at different ends of the normal temperature range of the fire. Is the thermocouple used to both shut off the igniter when the fire's hot enough, and to call for more pellets when it's not too hot?

The Wikipedia page on thermocouples say they get less accurate after too many cycles. What's their typical useful life in these stoves?

 

[whit]

Used to know a commercial electrician who'd string live wires without shutting off the circuit breaker. Claimed as long as the current didn't cross your heart it wouldn't kill you. Scarey to watch him work.

 

[kappel15]

It is hard to pinpoint an accurate life as there is too many variables.

 

[tjnamtiw]

One parts dealer's site says the most common symptom of a bad thermocouple is a failure to keep feeding pellets once the fire's started. Can it also cause a failure to keep heating pellets with the igniter prior to ignition? Seems like a problem in the opposite direction - failing to sense accurately at the low end when it's hot enough to be a fire, instead of sensing accurately at the high end that it's cooled down enough to call for more pellets. In both cases inaccurately reading it as hotter than it is would cause the problem, but at different ends of the normal temperature range of the fire. Is the thermocouple used to both shut off the igniter when the fire's hot enough, and to call for more pellets when it's not too hot?

The Wikipedia page on thermocouples say they get less accurate after too many cycles. What's their typical useful life in these stoves?

THAT'S why I asked you to tell me what, if any, lights you see in the control box when you start up. If it's amber, it's a bad thermocouple. If you see a red light right away, then something is wrong and the control box thinks that it's time to shut off the igniter. I've never actually heard of this happening but who knows!

Really the session with the igniter not RED hot was probably because you opened the door and interrupted the sequence. I'd still look for bridging up the auger chute.

 

[tjnamtiw]

We haven't talked about using a multi-meter yet. If you don't have one, get a cheap one that can read AC/DC/ohms. Unplug the igniter and read the resistance in ohms across the two leads. As Kap said, it is either infinite or some finite resistance.
Also, during start up with the igniter plugged in, CAREFULLY read the AC voltage from each lead to the chassis, which is ground. One side should be around 110-120 and the other side 0.