Secondary burn issue -- lopi declaration plus

[Mwstaab]

Hello -- first time posting for me so any help is greatly appreciated. I'm hoping for some insight on my new Lopi Declaration Plus wood insert.

Bottom line is, I'm struggling to get the secondaries to ignite, and it seems as though the doghouse air that comes in through the bottom on the front by the air control remains too strong with the air control pulled completely out (which is the lowest setting on the Lopi). I have close to a 30 foot interior chimney with 6" stainless liner, which has extremely good draft. My thinking is that this is my issue -- meaning the draft is so strong that it's sucking in too much air, even with the air control completely pulled out. My overnight burns with the stove pretty packed with seasoned hardwood only last 3-4 hours, at which point there are a few coals, but not enough to produce any heat. So immediate thought process is that there's too much air.

Perhaps this is a good problem to have (haven't cleaned the chimney yet to determine amount of creosote) but I've been looking for that cool visual effect of dancing flames on the secondary tubes and can't seem to get them to kick in. I usually burn around 450 degrees and don't have issues with heat output or maintaining a fire and never get smoke spillage since my draft is so good.

Any thoughts or guidance would be greatly appreciated. I can't seem to find any info online.

 

[begreen]

This might be the wood. Has it been checked for moisture content? When was it split and stacked?

 

[Mwstaab]

Thanks for the response! We ordered 3 chords this past fall. They noted it was split in May/June and we stacked it in the garage in October when it was delivered. Moisture content has been mixed. We have two meters and the wood has varied between high teens up to mod 30s. I monitored the moisture for a while and those were the results, so figured that's basically where the entire load is going to end up.

Perhaps the best test is to go pick up a few kiln dried bundles from the hardware store today. I imagine that might be a good indication?

 

[Mwstaab]

I forgot to mention as well that our glass doesn't get overly dirty. I do wipe it down daily to get rid of the light haze, but it rarely gets darker than that unless I run an overnight burn and don't get the fire hot enough before shutting down the air OR perhaps a large high-moisture content log makes it into the mix and doesn't burn hot.

 

[begreen]

I'd guess the odds are very strong that the wood is not fully seasoned, especially if it is a dense hardwood like oak, hickory, locust, etc.. These species need at least a couple years to dry out at the core. 30% is definitely damp and will need another year. If your local store has kiln dried bundles that's what I would try out for comparison. You could also take some of your current wood supply, split it in half and bring it indoors for a few days before burning. That should help bring down the moisture 3-5%. The goal is 20% or lower as measured on a freshly split face of wood at room temperature.

PS: Welcome to hearth.com

 

[Mwstaab]

Thanks for the warm welcome and advice.

I'll run out today and pick up a few bundles -- it'll be a good excuse to give the subaru a snow test! I certainly hope that's the issue as I've really been looking forward to enjoying the secondaries. I will say that I was a little concerned on the drying time they had noted. I had my wife have the installers look at the stack when I was at the office and they allegedly said the wood was fine...but I'm guessing they simply confirmed the wood wasn't cut yesterday.

I'll follow up with the results. Thanks again for your quick response!

 

[begreen]

I've known professional installers that don't even burn wood. Trust your moisture meter.

 

[begreen]

Be prepared to close down the air sooner and more aggressively with the kiln dried wood.

 

[Mwstaab]

Great will be prepared. I was also sticking the meter into the ends, not the side of a fresh split, which looking back I always questioned how accurate my approach could have possibly been...

Will keep you posted on the kiln dried test!

 

[begreen]

OK, I think you will see a significant difference. End grain readings are not accurate. Let the wood warm up to room temp, split some of the thicker pieces in half and take readings on the freshly exposed face of the wood. I think you will find the readings high. How much wood have you burned already? I would have the chimney checked if more than a cord has been burned.

 

[Mwstaab]

Yup just tested a piece I split this morning and it's reading low 30s. Ugh!

I'll call a sweep today for a cleaning!

 

[pdxdave]

Hello -- first time posting for me so any help is greatly appreciated. I'm hoping for some insight on my new Lopi Declaration Plus wood insert.

Bottom line is, I'm struggling to get the secondaries to ignite, and it seems as though the doghouse air that comes in through the bottom on the front by the air control remains too strong with the air control pulled completely out (which is the lowest setting on the Lopi). I have close to a 30 foot interior chimney with 6" stainless liner, which has extremely good draft. My thinking is that this is my issue -- meaning the draft is so strong that it's sucking in too much air, even with the air control completely pulled out. My overnight burns with the stove pretty packed with seasoned hardwood only last 3-4 hours, at which point there are a few coals, but not enough to produce any heat. So immediate thought process is that there's too much air.

Perhaps this is a good problem to have (haven't cleaned the chimney yet to determine amount of creosote) but I've been looking for that cool visual effect of dancing flames on the secondary tubes and can't seem to get them to kick in. I usually burn around 450 degrees and don't have issues with heat output or maintaining a fire and never get smoke spillage since my draft is so good.

Any thoughts or guidance would be greatly appreciated. I can't seem to find any info online.

Mwstabb, sorry to tell you but you are getting normal results for that stove. Your wood may not be ideal and if it was you may get some secondaries and a tiny bit longer burn, but don't expect much more.

 

[Mwstaab]

That's disappointing as this was a pricy insert. I just tested the kiln dried would with really no difference at all.

Question -- whether or not I get the dancing flames, are the secondaries at least effective in this model? Or am im not burning the gases at all?

Thanks for your feedback!

 

[Mwstaab]

I was just reading some other general reviews about the declaration on the hearth forum and one noted the secondaries in their declaration plus were, quote, mesmorizing?! Makes me wonder. And granted, this was from 2008, so perhaps they have changed the model a bit since then.

What's intereting is that when I shut the air all the way down, all of the logs still stay ingnited ?Yes fire slows down a bit, but it still seems to be getting too much doghouse air relative to the videos I've seen of secondaries in action. I've also read some posts on declaration inserts where people only close down the air about 90%, otherwise the fire will die out.

Sorry to harp on the issue, which as mentioned earlier may very well be standard with this stove, it just seems weird that the stove has four large secondary tubes that get no action. I feel like I bought a car that has an engine and transmission and it turns on fine, but doesn't drive -- so why have the transmission?? Perhaps not the best analogy....

 

[saskwoodburner]

All you can do is try different methods until you find the one that works best with "your stove, your wood". It may get frustrating at times, but you'll get it dialed in. For something that you throw wood in and burn, they can be more fussy than you could imagine. Moisture content of wood, strength of draft, weather conditions, how little or much you char the wood of the hop, all can help or hinder your burn.

Do you rage your fire at start up while charring the load, or walk into it gently? I never really get the slow ghostly in air flames unless I'm at a half firebox or less, and walk into it gently, shutting the air down sooner rather than later. This is in a mobile home set up, with a dinky 10? foot stack total, stove top to chimney cap. I can only imagine how 30 foot of chimney would pull.

 

[Mwstaab]

Thanks for the response and details. I've been trying everything, and yes it's been quite frustrating! I'm a senior analyst by trade, so I assess every detail very closely -- probably too muc -- Ugh! Hah!

I've tried ripping the stove right out of the gate to get it really hot and then slamming off the air -- no luck. I've tried easing it in, no luck. I'm confident I will eventually figure it out, but my conclusion at the moment is that it's an air issue.

My draft is great! Can't be upset about that. I've never had a smoke issue. My liner is insulated in the chimney which also runs straight up the middle of the house. So no exterior exposure other than the 3 feet that projects from the roof ridge. Open the firebox and it damn near sucks your shirt off your back!

Seems so simple when you watch peope do it on YouTube. Fire is going, they pull the air control out, and "poof" the entire set of secondaries light up. I do the same and get nothin! I've burned over a chord of wood at this point, so you'd think I'd have figured it out by now.

 

[matt1@]

Might want to check to make sure your baffle is tight up against the back of the stove. If the baffle moves away from the back of the stove it makes it much more difficult for secondaries because instead of the draft pulling the gasses front around the baffle they around the front and rear and little if any secondaries. Had this happen in my stove I accidentally bumped a log against baffle and moved it out of place. May or may not help but worth a double check

 

[S Roche]

I have a Lopi Republic insert and have no problem with the secondary burn when the temp reaches about 450. Here's a question, is your bypass lever open or closed?

 

[Mwstaab]

Responding to the last two posts here. Interesting suggestion on the baffle. My stove is hot right now but I'll take a closer look in the morning once it cools off. It does not appear to be dislodged. This stove also has a bypass, as noted in the second response (thank you both by the way!). The bypass, from my understanding of the manual, essentially closes off the baffle in the back so that the air/smoke runs across the secondaries towards the front. Then goes up over the baffle in the front and towards the back up the flue. So to answer the second post, my bypass is all the way closed. I tend to only open the bypass on start ups. Then close it once things are well and lit (basically once the fan kicks on, or a little before it kicks on. I've read you can open it when reloading, but it does seem necessary -- perhaps because I have such good draft. Also of note, when I do close the bypass I get this whistle sound -- more or less you hear air getting sucked in. Unless the bypass is fully open, the whistling sounds is present. I think it eventually goes away once I've been running for a while.

It's almost as if I need a damper on the liner (entirely impossible, of course, given this is an insert). I am curious about the baffle. Doesn't look to be dislodged, but never know. The bypass, when open, allows air to go up the back and I wonder if having it closed is not completely sealing the back off since the draft is so good. Never thought in a million years that having good draft could be problematic. Maybe it's not, but perhaps the stove is designed for "middle of the road" draft based on average chimney heights. And having very good draft hinders the performance. Doesn't seem right, but if I were designing a mass production product, that's probably how I'd approach it. "One size fits all", so don't make it XXL!

Hope to keep this going -- thanks all for the help and suggestions!

 

[pdxdave]

Responding to the last two posts here. Interesting suggestion on the baffle. My stove is hot right now but I'll take a closer look in the morning once it cools off. It does not appear to be dislodged. This stove also has a bypass, as noted in the second response (thank you both by the way!). The bypass, from my understanding of the manual, essentially closes off the baffle in the back so that the air/smoke runs across the secondaries towards the front. Then goes up over the baffle in the front and towards the back up the flue. So to answer the second post, my bypass is all the way closed. I tend to only open the bypass on start ups. Then close it once things are well and lit (basically once the fan kicks on, or a little before it kicks on. I've read you can open it when reloading, but it does seem necessary -- perhaps because I have such good draft. Also of note, when I do close the bypass I get this whistle sound -- more or less you hear air getting sucked in. Unless the bypass is fully open, the whistling sounds is present. I think it eventually goes away once I've been running for a while.

Mwstaab - I spent a lot of time tinkering with this stove and after everything I did there were 2 things I found that did help marginally. Now granted this involved modifying the stove so I don't necessarily recommend it or guarantee it for your situation in any way (this is my disclaimer) - but in my situation it did noticeably increase the heat output, secondary action, and burn time, although still not to what I would have liked.
a) Block the doghouse air - there several (5?) small holes at the bottom, just plug them up with a small nail/screw.
b) Remove the front secondary tube, it's overkill and has the vast majority of secondary air flowing through it since it has larger holes, starving the back 3 tubes. You'll have to block the holes left on either side with a small piece of sheet metal.
If you are feeling experimentational, give these a shot, and see if it helps at all.

 

[Mwstaab]

Thanks PDXdave! Im digging these forums -- so helpful, and a great community of folks!

I'm quite handy. Despite being a numbers guy by day, I'm about 70% done a full gut and remodel on our 100 year old house. And I'm not talking painting the walls and putting area rugs down -- This a full gut on my own. Walls, floors, plumbing, electrical, etc. I will say that I haven't tried my hand at welding, so removing the first secondary tube might take a back seat for now if sheet metal has to go in place of the air holes. I'll have to take a closer look as I Think there are bolts up there holding it in. So I could fab a cover plate with a bolt hole to attach. TBD.

But interesting idea on the doghouse inlet -- that I can definitely achieve. Assuming stainless plug screws are the way to go? I'll go one at a time, to assess the effectiveness.

Is it the same stove with these issues?

Thanks again!

 

[pdxdave]

Thanks PDXdave! Im digging these forums -- so helpful, and a great community of folks!

I'm quite handy. Despite being a numbers guy by day, I'm about 70% done a full gut and remodel on our 100 year old house. And I'm not talking painting the walls and putting area rugs down -- This a full gut on my own. Walls, floors, plumbing, electrical, etc. I will say that I haven't tried my hand at welding, so removing the first secondary tube might take a back seat for now if sheet metal has to go in place of the air holes. I'll have to take a closer look as I Think there are bolts up there holding it in. So I could fab a cover plate with a bolt hole to attach. TBD.

But interesting idea on the doghouse inlet -- that I can definitely achieve. Assuming stainless plug screws are the way to go? I'll go one at a time, to assess the effectiveness.

Is it the same stove with these issues?

Thanks again!

Declaration is the same stove except a two-part door that I'm aware of. Definately seeing the same set of issues.

Sure using just any small screws will work, just find ones that go in easy you don't want to change the hole size if it doesnt work out and you need to remove them.

For the tube, put the welder away! There just the bolt on the right side holding each tube in, so you can reuse that bolt to hold a piece of metal in place. For the other side i just cut a small piece of metal with a hook on top to hold it in place, then 'glued' it with stove cement.

 

[NextEndeavor]

Knowing stovetop temp might help but after looking up what you have, not sure how to get that short of an IR gun. Wet wood might be taking so many BTUs to boil off the water that your not getting the 500 degrees needed for ignition up near the reburn tubes. You can mix 2x4 scraps or even cut up dry pallets to add available BTUs (non treated lumber only). Compressed sawdust biobricks should do fine too. But don't buy any fireplace logs with wax in them.

 

[jophysx]

How were your results with the kiln dried wood? Any secondaries?

 

[begreen]

Did a stick of the store bought wood get resplit and measured? If the store bought wood is at <20% moisture and there is no difference in burning from >30% moisture, something else is going on. In the very least the output temps should have gone up significantly.