seeking advice from those that know much more than myself

[dmwharton]

my wife and i are buying a century old farmhouse.
everything will be gutted, insulated with r17 in the walls, r30 in the attic.
it's small, 1 1/2 stories. 780 sq. ft first floor, almost 400 upstairs.
all ceilings are low, 7'6" on first floor; 6'8" upstairs.
newer, tile-lined central chimney running from basement to 4' above roof shingles.
it presently has no heating unit or duct work, but there are floor vents in every room on the first floor.
is it absurd to think that i can buy a decent (but used) wood burner off craigslist and expect it to adequately heat that house?
a few examples:
(broken link removed)
(broken link removed)
(broken link removed)
i do not want to be naive, but we do not have a lot of money, and what we do have is going to fix up the house.
any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.
i have already learned a great deal from this site,
so thank you all for your time and shared knowledge.

douglas

p.s. this is a pic of the house: http://www.flickr.com/photos/12239927@N07/3079099849/in/set-72157611864755990/

 

[Brian VT]

My neighbor has a center-chimney cape with a VC Defiant in the basement and floor registers in both floors above. His house is always toasty warm. Really warm.
From what I've read here it's not the ideal system, but this guy has had it working well somehow for 15+ years. His only backup is electric heat ($$$$) so I know it rarely gets used.
YRMV.
I have a stove in my finished basement and it has cut back on my fuel oil use but I couldn't heat my whole house with it. I don't have the layout to take advantage of it.
In general, a wood stove is a space heater. You'd probably do better, and get a more even heat, by doing a wood-fired boiler and baseboard.

 

[snowtime]

A central location for the chimney makes you perfect for a stove. We heat only with wood in much colder country and you can do it to. There are many stoves that will do the job for a small place like yours but there are a few things to remember. First do not go cheap and get an old pre EPA stove the new stoves are safer more efficient. Second do a proper install with whatever liner or chimney you need, just research this site and ask questions.
As for which stove I would look at new your going to use this for a long time and might as well get exactly whats needed for your place. The good news is late winter or early spring is the time to get a deal on a good stove. The problem with a small home is getting a stove that will not be to much. The consensus around here is a bigger stove is better because you can always build a small fire but a small stove will not cut it in cold weather. I think with your situation a Soapstone stove would look great and not cook you they are famous for gentle heat. Take your wife to dealers and look at stoves. Find what you like. Please do not make the mistake of doing it cheap. Post back when you have some idea about what stove you want.

 

[Dix]

Center chimney, relined, be it a free standing stove, or an insert if there is a FP, will heat that whole house. You'll be dancing on the ceiling

In the basement, you are going to be struggling, and getting frustrated.

Find the room in the house.

If I had had the option, I would have gone with a stove.

 

[Hogwildz]

Buying used is always a gamble. But does not mean a great deal cannot be found.
The other alternative is to Purchase an Englander stove at Home Depot or Lowes. Great prices for a new stove.

 

[dmwharton]

is it not a fair trade-off to loose some heat by heating the basement
but gain evenly distributed heat throughout the rest of the house?
i wouldn't mind installing an insert, but if you look at this pic (where the watermarked drywall is):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12239927@N07/3149296946/in/set-72157611864755990/
you can see that the stove would be directly in the doorway of the kitchen/dining room.
should that be a concern? is that do-able?
free standing is not an option with the present layout of the house,
and i don't know enough about inserts to know if this is something i should pursue.
again, all advice is taken into consideration and very much appreciated.

douglas

 

[begreen]

Putting a stove in a traffic area is not a good plan. The stove will be very hot, so it's not a good idea to put it where people might bump into it when passing each other. Normally I am not in favor of basement installations, but for some they work out if there is an easy path for the heat to rise to the first floor. Does the house have a central, open, basement stairway via which the majority of the heat can rise up? If so, it might work for you, but do consider insulating the basement walls so that you aren't heating the earth instead of your house.

You've listed (on craiglist links) a couple stoves that might work out in this situation, the Century and the VC Resolute. Are you confident in inspecting a used stove for potential issues? If so, you might find something worthy for a good price. But usually that takes a little luck and patience. A nice stove could show up in a week, or it could take a few months. Hog's suggestion of an Englander is a good one. In a few weeks they should be on sale at Home Depots and Lowes stores. A 13 NC should be adequate to heat the house, especially if you can insulate the basement.

 

[edthedawg]

Wow. WOW.

Ok - I'm gonna focus on the house itself primarily. When I read "It's all going to be gutted..." I cringed. Then I looked at the pix and you are definitely doing it a favor to gut it out. It's atrocious what can happen to neglected old houses... My recommendations are to open up EVERYTHING downstairs except for maybe the bedroom (you probably are planning to keep that for yourself, I imagine) but otherwise make a large, wide open area for the kit/DR/LR, and get rid of the walls that close off the main stairway to the 2nd floor. Keep anything loadbearing, obviously, but otherwise make plenty of traffic clearance, sightlines, and airflow freedom and you will be amazed at how much better the place will look AND function. I've tackled MUCH WORSE and won - you can too. Hope you know a LOT about carpentry, electrical, and plumbing.

Put the stove in the living room - find a way to get it into that room. Make an awkward bend with the stovepipe if you have to, but get it into the living room, and not directly in any traffic path. You have the POSSIBLE/POTENTIAL freedom, with the plan to open the place up a bit, to maybe shift a doorway, eliminate a closet, extend a wall, etc. if you have to, in order to improve such a situation.

With such a small house, adding good insulation and a few well-placed fans will more than keep you warm enough on a decent stove alone.

You should consider a gas-fired appliance as well for "backup" heat. You have the gas line there... Not sure what was heating this house previously, to be honest. There's no evidence of ductwork on those vents? or there was and it's all gone now? Note also - since this really looks like a single flue, you can NOT put the LP burner into the same flue as the woodstove. So if you do get LP heating installed, get yourself a high-efficiency direct-vent unit that uses PVC piping directly out the basement sidewall, and you won't have any problem there - leave the central flue to the woodstove. There's no real way to make a full LP burner, heat exchanger / air handler, and ductwork happen on the cheap (unless you or a good friend are deep in the HVAC field) so the woodstove is an excellent start.

Good luck! Maybe if you could sketch up a floorplan and post that, it would be easier to discuss placement options for the stove...

 

[Shari]

Ditto what Edthedawg said - all great pointers for you.

Shari

 

[eernest4]

Dear DMwarton


I have a wood stove in the basement & while it works well down there when the outside temp is above 30 deg F , I have a severe problem getting the heat up out of the basement & on to the first floor faster than the outside cold comes into the house.

Bottom line is that the first floor is chilly 60 to 66 deg & the basement is 95 deg when it is 24 deg outside.

What happens is the cold comes into the house faster than I can get hot air from the basement
upstairs into the rooms where I am.

In my case, the heat is limited by how much hot air I can get up the stairway & how much cold air I can get down the stairway & the heat output of the stove.
The hot basement idea works great above 30 deg & poorly below 30 deg.Very poor in the single digits I need to turn on my oil burner.

The basement is roasty toasty, but I don't live down there, I live on the chilly first floor & the second floor I might as well use for a walk in freezer as temps between 48 and 54 prevail on the second floor.

I have a huge 12 cubic foot firebox in my secondary burn stove down in the basement & I have been burning it pretty much 24 /7 since thanksgiving. The basement is plenty hot but getting ENOUGH heat upstairs is a different story.

So for you I would recommend spending a little extra and go to thicker insulation & this will be a big help.

Get a brand new 1800 sq ft englander wood stove from lowes at the end of jan or first week in feb 2009. Lowes sells the summersheat brand that is a englander stove (parts intrechange)
& if you can , buy the 2,200 sq ft stove.

INSURE THAT YOU DONT MISS THE END OF SEASON SALE, LAST WEEK OF JAN OR FIST WEEK OF FEB YOU CAN BUY A $1300.oo stove for under $600.oo BUT THEY ALL SELL OUT ON THE MORNING OF THE FIRST DAY OF THE SALE. The sale may be a week long but they have nothing left to sell you by the end of second day.
That the day off from work if you have to to insure that you get your stove. Buy it with your credit card & leave the stove in the store,paid for until you can come back with a pick up truck or make araingements for delevery.

The englander fits on a well made professional appliance carrier with a ratcheting belt & stair climber v belts, quite nicely & I was able to wheel it into my house by myself but a helper to help you over the bumps or stairs will make it a lot easier on you.

I installed the stove myself by reading and following the installation directions that can with it.
The directions can also be downloaded for free from www.englanderstoves.com
These are the reasons why i recommend a bigger stove & not a smaller stove.

1. overnight burn time; you want a 10 or 12 hour overnight burn so you can load up your stove when you go to sleep & wake up to a warm house. You don't want the stove fire going dead at 4 am & you have to get up & feed the stove. It ruins your nights sleep.

2. better to have a big stove so that you can load it up full if it is cold & only use a 1/3 or 1/4 load of wood when it is warmer out.
There will be days when you will be loading full loads & burning 24/7 & days when you burn 1/4 load in the morning & 1/4 load at night.

The stove won't blast you out of the room with too much heat unelse you put too much wood into it.

I dont think you would buy a car with a two cylinder 30 hp engine because it wouldnt go over 50 mph & you could not pass anyone out.

Don't buy a stove too small to heat your house as it would have to burn 24/7 & you would still be chilly in other rooms in the house.

3. MAKE SURE you buy either a secondary burn epa stove or a catalistic combustor epa stove.

the reason for this is fuel economy.

Do you want to burn 10 cords of wood a winter with an
old fashioned stove or 4 cords with a secondary burn stove.
Wood costs money, time & effort, so do buy a secondary burn stove, such as the englander.

catalitic combustor stoves do an even better job of being cheap with the wood than secondary burn stoves but the catalytic combustors need replacement every 3 to 5 years and cost $200 to $500 each for just the part.

secondary burn tubes rarely go bad, maybe once every 10 to 20 years & cost 90.oo to 200.oo to replace, for the parts.

The catalitic combustor is only 5 to 10 % more efficient than secondary burn while secondary burn is 50% to 70% more fuel efficient than old fashioned (pre E.P.A.) stoves.

Do plan to put the stove on the same floor where you will be doing most of your living & provide for warm air flow to your bedroom, even if this means knocking out a wall or installing hot air fan forced heat registers through the walls and a cold air return register, also fan forced.

You are better off if you can design the interior of the house to provide for easy hot & cold return air flow without the fan forced so that you dont end up being cold when there is an electricty outage.

If you think your area may be prone to power outages , do buy at least a small 2 cycle,--2 or 3 hp emergency generator, maybe 500 watts,(140.oo)www.harborfrieght.com,so you can run one appliance at a time when the power is out.
a 1000 wt, 3.5 hp is a better choice for 500.oo-600.oo or a 1000watt 6.5hp for 600.oo 800.oo

the larger the wattage, the more aplliances you can run at the same time.

sometimes, you need to prepair ahead of time, for when bad things happen to good people.

I hope this helps you out with your choices.

 

[kenny chaos]

Here's some ideas from a different angle; It sounds like you haven't taken posession of the house yet but you're looking for a woodstove already. Is that a choice that needs to be made so soon? Heating with wood is quite a romantic notion but it can be very time consuming and not only include having to cut and split all your own wood, but the everyday mundane tasks of hauling in wood, cleaning ashes, cleaning the inevitable mess in the surrounding area, etc.. Sure, it could be done but not my personal choice to deal with during a major remodel.
I would have to work a lot of hours to be able to afford to rebuild a house which would not leave me as much time as I needed/wanted to work the remodel. Plus there's always a million other things that come up which require my time and money. I couldn't keep a woodstove going if I was that stretched. A body could easily become a slave to their stove which is a real bad thing.
If I was in that situation (which I have been several times), I think I might find an old forced air furnace for little or nothing, and let that just blow in the basement. When everything else is done, I'd crown my achievement with my new woodstove. Remember, heating is THE major priority in the winter months and an investment in a stove should reflect that.
As far as planning a location for your stove, many like it in the center of the house. Mine is in the kitchen on a slate hearth surrounded by linoleum and close to the door to the backroom where the wood is stored. There is no carpet near my stove. That means there's less mess, easy cleaning, and much safer. Keep these things in mind along with the ideas of heating every room and air circulation. It's in the area we use the most and a small portable electric heater runs about two hours every evening to take the chill out of the bedroom.
That house of yours just oozes potential. Good luck with it and have a ball.

 

[edthedawg]

I'm at work now so can't view the photos, but IIRC there's no firewood onsite - right? Sure - lots of trees and potential wood, but nothing cut/split/stacked and ready to go... If that's the case, and assuming this is planned for the very near term, then it begs the question...

what are ya gonna burn?

Having the stove installed safely and in such a way that you get good heating throughout the house is really only one small part of the whole thing. So to answer the core question of the OP, which is "is it absurd to think that i can buy a decent (but used) wood burner off craigslist and expect it to adequately heat that house?", then yes - BUT - only if you're ready to actually use it. (I suspect you probably are, really - just can't tell from photos alone...)

 

[beau5278]

I have that same Century stove in a room on the first floor,that used to be a front porch,it does a good job but it wouldn't heat that whole house.That house was built for a stove in the basement and that's where I would install one if it were mine,I also have an older,pre EPA stove in the basement with a chimney through the center of the house.My basement stove runs 8 or 9 months out of the year while the one on the first floor usually only runs a couple of months.The nice part about basement stoves is,most of the mess is in the basement where it doesn't make as much of a mess through the rest of the house.The ideal situation for you,as long as your remodeling anyway,would be a boiler and baseboard but you'd be looking at more money to do that.Looking at your pictures,I don't see much of any walls on the first floor that aren't load bearing,so the most that you would be able to do is bigger doorways and then that will probably make it harder to fit furniture especially in rooms that are small to begin with.If you keep your eyes open,you should be able to find a decent used woodburner for less than new but you should do your homework to be confident that what your looking at will be safe and fairly efficient.

 

[savageactor7]

douglas 1st of all let me say props to you for finding this handyman's special...cause that's what my 2 houses were and we made out well with both. I love those houses. I've always advised my friends if they're even the least bit handy buy the worst house is the best neighborhood you can afford.

Absolutely an old stove will heat the place up to your comfort level. No duct work with floor registers...perfect for wood. It might be a good idea to have a wood burning buddy take a look at any stoves.

Also get the water tested and lock down the water problem before you spend any dough on the kitchen bathroom.

Remember ...sheet rock is you friend, esp so in an older house where everything is out of square. Use lighter colors, stay away from paneling.

Don't kill yourself trying to do everything at once, take frequent breaks, enjoy your wife. In 5 years that place can be worth 150k without spending over 20k.

 

[dmwharton]

wow, you guys are excellent. so much feedback, perspective, and variety!
much of what you've said is encouraging, and i sure appreciate that.
back story: my wife and i have been married three years, and in that time,
we have been living abroad in developing countries.
so our ideas of "comfort" are maybe a little different than many of our neighbors.
also, the house was a deal. a real good deal. it's solidly built with MASSIVE foundation stones,
oak beams, and believe it or not, newer vinyl windows.
all of that on four acres, with a huge garage and an out building...for 42,500.
insane huh?
it definitely needs a lot of work, but of course we're poor, so i'm going the econo-route wherever i can.
that's one of the reasons for the woodburner (besides the fact that the house is pretty well conducive that it).
we are surrounded by folks with hundred acre lots of forest.
i don't know for certain of course, but i feel confident that we'll be able to get the wood we need
at a price we can afford.

someone told me today about vent fans available that would potentially pull a lot of the heat from the basement...
any experience with this? is this something i could count on if a first floor unit is not an option?

another (bizarre) question that my wife came up with while reading everyone's responses,
would it be possible(or worth it) to put in an insert on the first floor on the OTHER side of the chimney stack?
that is, in the basement stairwell.
if you look at this pic, you can see a cheapy shelving unit that backs up to the chimney:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12239927@N07/3148492113/in/set-72157611864755990/
what would be the benefits of me putting an insert in here as opposed to the basement option?

thanks everyone

douglas

 

[LeonMSPT]

When I was 10, my folks built a new house. The chimney was brick, massive, had an 8x8 tile flu for the oil burner, and a 8x12 for two (yep, two) woodstoves. Once was a Franklin Fireplace which was rarely used, for looks and fun mainly, in the living room upstairs. The other was an "All Nighter - 'Big Mo'" that lived in the basement.

That stove heated pretty much the entire house. This was a 28 x 32, two story with a furnished basement. As well all know well from discussions of block off plates and moving air into basements from other floors, heat rises. We spent minimal money at the time on domestic hot water and standby heat if the wood went cold because nobody was home.

Depending on the climate, if this is to be the only source of heat in the house, the pipes will freeze without heat in the basement. Where you don't "live" in the basement, you can run the stove hotter than you might if you were living in the basement.

 

[oconnor]

Make sure you insulate the flue liner - Your chimney is likely in direct contact with structural timbers, and insulating the liner correctly can give you a fully code compliant chimney (likely a zero clearance requirement), and better performance as a side benefit. Also, it is way easier to air seal around the chimney when it is done to a zero clearance spec, as you can insulate right up to the brick, and can you normal foams and sprays and adhesives etc without concern for combustion hazards.

We just did a refit on our 1200 sqft 2 storey (600 down, 600 up) and the biggest improvement we noticed was when we air sealed the basement sill plate and replaced the basement windows. we heat with a small Jotul insert on the main floor, and our basement is now insulated to R24. It is never too cold downstairs, even using just wood heat upstairs. keeping the door open and sometimes blowing a fan down the basement stairs (mostly to cool off the main floor) is all we need.

 

[oconnor]

One other thing to think of for heat - with all the reno, have you thought of wood fired hydronic heat instead of a stove - then you get the stove out of the traffic area. The folks in the Boiler Room (other forum here at hearth.com) would have some great info on using heat storage so you can get even temps from the system. More expensive to install, but worth a look, since I'm not paying for it .We use electric fired hot water Rads as our backup system here, and love the heat it gives, just hate the bills.

 

[oldgrezmonke]

Just a thought , talk to some of your Amish neighbors .

 

[edthedawg]

DMW - Now that i understand the full layout, you are really boned six ways to sunday on this for an upstairs install... you really are gonna have to put the burner in the basement. Get that gas line out of there and figure out exactly how you'll transition into the flue stack - it's uber important since you would appear to be going from a gas-fired appliance to a wood-fired one - the stack requirements are MUCH higher for the woodburner. Unless you can handle moving that doorway to the dining room over, so you could put the stove/insert over in the space that is the present traffic path, you have noplace to put a stove. and even then, it feels pretty limited because the DR is a small room itself.

So i guess i would go w/ basement here. insulate the HELL out of the walls or, as posted above, you are just heating the ground outside. It may not feel like it, but trust us all when we say that planet earth is a pretty decent thermal mass to compete against. Then it becomes a question of getting the warm air moved around. With those big vents in the floor, you would be doing ok probably - let the basement stairs be your cold air return OR your warm air feed for your convection loop up or down thru the various vents. Not sure which will work best for you, but you will find it best to push cold air at the stove - that's what makes the most even heat. Your bedrooms are a long way away from the heat source, so get a LOT of insulation when you fix the place up.

The house exhibits a LOT of water damage - has the roof been fixed? or are you inheriting that problem for you to fix? That's a major one there - all that buckled paneling is the telltale. Looks like a funhouse mirror. Your first and foremost focus has to be rebuilding that roof leakage, wherever it is happening. Then address whatever godawfulness made the bathroom look like a Rust Monster died in it. That's #2. THEN worry about heating the thing.

I stand by my earlier comments too - open the whole place up and make it be less compartmentalized. and insulate EVERYTHING - even your bathroom interior walls. you'll be glad you did.

I would not at all recommend putting an insert in the stairwell. i doubt it's remotely legal, either.

 

[dmwharton]

great suggestion on talking with the amish neighbors, i look forward to doing that as soon i can.
the wood paneling is buckled throughout the house.
it's that cheap 1/8" inch (if that) stuff.
the house was foreclosed upon over a year ago. it's just been sitting empty, with busted windows in the basement and one upstairs, ever since.
so, lots of moisture. that's the primary reason for the demo.
i believe you about the basement needing insulation.
it breaks my heart though, it is honestly the most remarkable set of foundations stones i have ever seen.
they probably avg. 600 lbs, some of them easily topping 1,000.
so i was hoping that they would retain - rather than absorb, much of the heat...maybe even eventually radiating (naive).
i suppose i could try to heat un-insulated at first and see how it goes.
and beleive it or not, that's not rust. those are plastic shower walls and tub unit.
that's the result of really, really, really hard well water.
any thoughts on this: http://www.atrendyhome.com/durebofan.html or something like it to pull air out of the basement?

douglas

 

[oconnor]

hot air will leave all on it's own - what you need to do is replace it from within the house, or else it will get sucked in from outside - the basement is a relative negative pressure zone - the principle is called stack effect. Give this link a good read - my tax dollars at work - a great resource on insulating and renovating for energy efficency - a gift for an American friend

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/residential/personal/new-home-improvement/basics.cfm?attr=4

Lots of info on older homes too. When you get this house done, you will love it.

That said, I darn near walked away from mine before we finished....

 

[edthedawg]

great suggestion on talking with the amish neighbors, i look forward to doing that as soon i can.
the wood paneling is buckled throughout the house.
it's that cheap 1/8" inch (if that) stuff.
the house was foreclosed upon over a year ago. it's just been sitting empty, with busted windows in the basement and one upstairs, ever since.
so, lots of moisture. that's the primary reason for the demo.
i believe you about the basement needing insulation.
it breaks my heart though, it is honestly the most remarkable set of foundations stones i have ever seen.
they probably avg. 600 lbs, some of them easily topping 1,000.
so i was hoping that they would retain - rather than absorb, much of the heat...maybe even eventually radiating (naive).
i suppose i could try to heat un-insulated at first and see how it goes.
and beleive it or not, that's not rust. those are plastic shower walls and tub unit.
that's the result of really, really, really hard well water.
any thoughts on this: http://www.atrendyhome.com/durebofan.html or something like it to pull air out of the basement?

douglas

1 - the pix REALLY make it look like there is SOME water coming down from the chimney flashing or a failed valley or something up there. don't assume all the moisture damage is from open windows alone.

2 - you will never impart enough heat energy from inside the house to make those large stones feel even warm to the touch, let alone radiate heat. unless you can stand the basement standing at 150F... (never may be a strong word there, but it's highly doubtful, ok?) Insulate those basement walls.

3 - i hear you w/ the hard water - plan for a softener system or at least an inline cartridge filter.

4 - those fans in the vents are a nice idea but you can do way better on the cheap. a quick check shows they max out at 100cfm and cost about $60 each... So 5 vents would cost you $300 and you have to wired them up yourself. On ebay right now, you can get a lot of 5 new 115VAC muffin fans w/ 100cfm capacity for $75 total, incl. free shipping. The switching would wind up potentially being even easier for you - you could conceivably wire them all together to a single switch on the wall somewhere... and that leaves you with $225 more to spend on that cute kid Boys gotta have toys!

 

[dmwharton]

yeah, sorry about that.
forgot to mention that the flashing needs repaired on the chimney.
it's a simple fix, but a crucial one, and it has to be done first thing.

douglas