seton next generation boiler rusting out

[gundog24]

I have a seton ,next generation boiler built by bethel engineer. This is my second season burning with it. burning good dry hard wood.
The back panel and top panel are rusting out. the panels are galvanized sheet metal , the galvanized coating is coming off first then the panel starts to rust out fast.
will try to get pics. on for everyone to see.

 

[patch53]

Not good, have you contacted John @ Bethel yet? I built a Seton 130 this year. I will be taking the back panel off for inspection and cleaning next spring, hope I don't find the same !? I wonder why the galvanization is failing?

Pat

 

[91220da]

Gundog,
That really sucks, I have a greenwood and wish I had bought a Seton. Please post pictures. I am always concerned about my greenwood rusting threw. So far so good. Damn cheap Chinese steel used in these things. Yeah, to hell with being politically correct, China is producing some crap steel and we the good ol US of A are buying it. This country started going to hell the day Bethlehem Steel closed.

 

[sgschwend]

From: American Galvanized Association, let me know what you think, it looks to me that the material should work fine.

The temperature of the air can have a significant effect on the corrosion rate of some materials, but hot-dip galvanized steel does not show significant differences at very low temperatures, below -40 F, or at very high temperatures, above 150 F.

However, very high temperature environments can have an affect on galvanized steel. These effects depend on the time exposed and the severity of the environment. When considering long-term exposure, the recommended maximum service temperature is approximately 390 F (200 C). Problems that could occur from long-term exposure to temperatures above this level include peeling. Peeling is caused by closely spaced voids that expand and form a gap, it causes the outer free zinc layer to split-off from the underlying zinc-iron alloy layers. However, the remaining zinc-iron alloy layers will still provide a high level of corrosion protection for many years.

At temperatures ranging between 390 F (200 C) and 480 F (250 C), the zinc-iron alloy layers will continue to protect the steel from corrosion. High temperatures above 480 F (250 C) will accelerate peeling and continued exposure can result in the zinc-iron alloy layers cracking and separating from the steel. Temperature applications of hot-dip galvanized steel above 480 F (250 C) are not recommended.

When considering short-term usage, that is, periods of less than two hours at a time or onetime temperature excursions for less than twenty-four hours, the recommended maximum service temperature for galvanized steel is approximately 660 F (350 C).

Studies done on the effect of low temperature environments on HDG steel indicate minimal change in the behavior of the galvanized coating. Some polar installations have used HDG steel for corrosion protection and have been in service for many years. As with any steel at very low temperatures, the material becomes brittle with extended use. Low temperature climates are an appropriate use for hot-dip galvanized steel.

 

[gundog24]

Yes, i did call john @bethel . he was concerned,I did send him some pics. So I'm hoping that they will do something for me.
A friend of mine bought a tarm at the same time that i bought the seton, he has had no problems so far.
The galvanized coating isn't peeling apart, it seems to be turning to a white chalky color then rust from there, at that spot.
I think that it is a bad shipment of steel. But from my experience once something starts to rust no matter what you do, it will continue to rust.
Now,i got to here it from my wife. and THAT SUCKS for me

 

[2.beans]

the only way those rot out is extended idle time. the insulation will absorb moisture and if the boiler doesnt run long enough to get the refractory really hot it wont ever dry the insulation, or condensation off from the panels. my buddy built a seton that is oversized for his load and his sides are rotting out also. these things need to run hard for long stretches to get the condensation out. i dont think its the quality of the metal, it might be but id tend to say its how its run, and no im not chinese. does your boiler run wide open for any length of time?

 

[NNYorker]

NNYorker Posted: 29 September 2009 09:20 PM [ # 10 ]

Fire Honor Society

Upstate N.Y.
Total Posts: 154
Joined 2008-03-18 AlaskaWoodburner - 29 September 2009 04:12 PM
It is certainly worth $3,000. Looking at the posts of those with problems it appears that they were not using it correctly. If you smolder wet wood at low temps you will have corrosion problems with any device. I have had mine for 2 years now with zero problems. It is unfortunate that the investors decided to take their money elsewhere, but the product itself is a solid design. If I ever do have trouble with the outer sheet metal the local metal fab shop will be able to build me a SS outer shell for a reasonable price.

If I had to do it all over knowing what I know now I would have gone with the Seton which is nearly an identical design to the Greenwood.[/quote


I too had a Seton/Greeenwood clone—the infamous Adobe. I burned with mine for approx.3-4 mo. and my recycled car fender panels started rusting through. My wood was less than desirable as far as moisture content but far from green. Not to rain on anyone’s parade but unless you burn 24/7x365 full out I think owners with any type of mild steel panels are living on borrowed time. I too believe the design is solid and simple—-with the right build materials. If my unit had been fitted with stainless side panels I’d probably still be running it. I cringe when I see threads of these units being torn apart to be refurbed. Best of luck with the GW.

 

[sgschwend]

Seems like no comment about the American Galvanized Association info.

It looks like it id won to two possibilities:
There isn't a true hot dipped galvanized coating,
or your environment is much more than hot air.

good luck

 

[patch53]

Seems like no comment about the American Galvanized Association info.

It looks like it id won to two possibilities:
There isn't a true hot dipped galvanized coating,
or your environment is much more than hot air.

good luck

Steve, my guess would be poor galvanized material. The outside panels on my Seton do not get hot at all, even when its been cranking for a while. The literature states that the sides should be under 100F or so during operation, mine are just nice and warm, but definitely not what I would call hot. The door does get hot, but not the panels.

I am a bit concerned about my panels now tho also, because my 2 side panels have some chalky stains on them that won't wipe off. However, the chalky spots were there long before I put them on the stove. I had the panels sitting outside all summer under my woodshed so they were out of the weather. When I took them out to put the insulation on I noticed the chalky areas. They were only on the outside so I didn't give it a second thought, maybe I should have?

If they do rust out I'm going to change them to SS. In hindsight I think these panels should be SS rather than just galvanized anyway.

 

[sgschwend]

That is my guess too.

Acid is hard on this stuff, if you do a search like I did you can find a lot of information about the chemical reactions with hot dipped. The association looks like a good place to start.

My buddy has a GW, just painted steel skins.

 

[2.beans]

Seems like no comment about the American Galvanized Association info.

It looks like it id won to two possibilities:
There isn't a true hot dipped galvanized coating,
or your environment is much more than hot air.

good luck

Steve, my guess would be poor galvanized material. The outside panels on my Seton do not get hot at all, even when its been cranking for a while. The literature states that the sides should be under 100F or so during operation, mine are just nice and warm, but definitely not what I would call hot. The door does get hot, but not the panels.

I am a bit concerned about my panels now tho also, because my 2 side panels have some chalky stains on them that won't wipe off. However, the chalky spots were there long before I put them on the stove. I had the panels sitting outside all summer under my woodshed so they were out of the weather. When I took them out to put the insulation on I noticed the chalky areas. They were only on the outside so I didn't give it a second thought, maybe I should have?

If they do rust out I'm going to change them to SS. In hindsight I think these panels should be SS rather than just galvanized anyway.

the small quarter sized chalky spots on the sides are where they have weld bolts on the inside to hold the kaywool on. if run these wide open for long periods of time you wont have a problem with the gallvy sides.

 

[patch53]

2beans, actually my chalky areas are on the top 1/2 of the side panels only. They are about 2 feet wide by about 1 foot high and kind of ovalish shaped. Nothing on the top panel or back panel, just the sides. The spots are almost identical and I think this is because they were resting side by side with the insulation pins facing out. So I'm not sure why these areas only got chalky. I think I'll ask my buddy, who helped me build the stove, where he got the 16 ga galvanized from. I hope its not another issue with cheap material coming from China?

Pat

 

[henfruit]

I have a greewood 100 no storage. i have noticed a couple of rust bubbles on the top panel comming through the paint. my sides get hot to the touch. my boiler room is about 100 F. at this time of the year. i had the side panel off this fall and found a little rust on the insde . i was thinking of storage? how long would 850 gallon last at 180 f.

 

[gundog24]

This is where my boiler is rusting out. i hope the picture helps.
I've been watching and reading the forum from hearth.com for more than 2yrs. and i find it very useful.
I don't have a college degree, but i been burning wood for a long time to heat my house
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know you have to use good dry, well seasoned wood.
Although I don't have water storage, my boiler is undersized for my house so idle time is NOT an issue.
Bottom line when you pay $7000 for something it should last MORE than 2 seasons.

 

[2.beans]

This is where my boiler is rusting out. i hope the picture helps.
I've been watching and reading the forum from hearth.com for more than 2yrs. and i find it very useful.
I don't have a college degree, but i been burning wood for a long time to heat my house
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know you have to use good dry, well seasoned wood.
Although I don't have water storage, my boiler is undersized for my house so idle time is NOT an issue.
Bottom line when you pay $7000 for something it should last MORE than 2 seasons.

your right, it should last for more than two years. what is your operating temps set at? whats the differential on the draft door at? and how long does the draft door stay open at full or close to full load? the rot hole looks like its at the back of the boiler at the return side of the system correct? if so what is your return water temp?

 

[2.beans]

2beans, actually my chalky areas are on the top 1/2 of the side panels only. They are about 2 feet wide by about 1 foot high and kind of ovalish shaped. Nothing on the top panel or back panel, just the sides. The spots are almost identical and I think this is because they were resting side by side with the insulation pins facing out. So I'm not sure why these areas only got chalky. I think I'll ask my buddy, who helped me build the stove, where he got the 16 ga galvanized from. I hope its not another issue with cheap material coming from China?

Pat

have you taken the side off to inspect the vessel to see if you have any build up? i know on my father inlaws seton his had bad build up and he had a chimney fire/vessel fire that made large discoloration of the back panel.any pictures?

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

With no disrespect meant to any of the posters . . . Yes, we 'should' run these beasts 'properly', but . . .

We need to build these units with less regard to cost and more thought toward using them for +20 years. When the welder was here replacing the nipple on my GW manifold, we talked briefly about stainless steel. He said he's seen some sheetzy stainless too. I don't profess to be a metalurgist, nor a chemist but we need to use the right materials. I am open to ideas in that regard from any of you that know more about stainless steel than I do.

Anyone remember the fenders on the Datsuns and Subarus when they first came over?

 

[patch53]

2beans, actually my chalky areas are on the top 1/2 of the side panels only. They are about 2 feet wide by about 1 foot high and kind of ovalish shaped. Nothing on the top panel or back panel, just the sides. The spots are almost identical and I think this is because they were resting side by side with the insulation pins facing out. So I'm not sure why these areas only got chalky. I think I'll ask my buddy, who helped me build the stove, where he got the 16 ga galvanized from. I hope its not another issue with cheap material coming from China?

Pat

have you taken the side off to inspect the vessel to see if you have any build up? i know on my father inlaws seton his had bad build up and he had a chimney fire/vessel fire that made large discoloration of the back panel.any pictures?

No, haven't taken the side panels off, and I won't till spring. This is my first season with the stove. Like I said tho, these chalky spots were on the panels long before I ever put them on the stove and another 2 months after that before I fired up the Seton.

Here are a few pics. You can actually start to see some rust coming thru where the pins are now. I have a good feeling I'll be replacing these panels with SS soon. I am going to find out where the material came from because there is no way this galvanized should have corroded without any exposure to any heat, chemicals or anything other than ambient air.

Pat

 

[NNYorker]

With no disrespect meant to any of the posters . . . Yes, we 'should' run these beasts 'properly', but . . .

We need to build these units with less regard to cost and more thought toward using them for +20 years. When the welder was here replacing the nipple on my GW manifold, we talked briefly about stainless steel. He said he's seen some sheetzy stainless too. I don't profess to be a metalurgist, nor a chemist but we need to use the right materials. I am open to ideas in that regard from any of you that know more about stainless steel than I do.

Anyone remember the fenders on the Datsuns and Subarus when they first came over?

Ditto on no disrespect part......My point being too....yes, everyone should burn em "properly"..........But, did you happen to see anything mentioned or were you told how to burn the Seton/Greenwood/Adobe "properly"? Any advertising I've seen never mentioned anything other than if it fits in the door, it will burn it. No mention idle time may cause condensation and in turn rot the beasts from inside out. Did they say...Burn it like a wood stove--throw some wood in it, when it gits lo, put some mo in .... Any mention of storage....? At the least, advertising for all these units is lacking; lacking proper info for an educated buying decision. Misleading??? There is no mention of REAL WORLD burning conditions as many choose to heat--no storage. I believe Seton incorporated a "condensate"pan in their unit this year; after thirty years of building them...

We need to build these units........ We, as in the fabricators need to build them to last, not us the purchasers. We have people on this forum with all brands talking of refurbing these units to some extent. Does anybody have more than four seasons/years burning on any of them? I was in the same boat a year ago. Enclosure panels rusting out and smoking me out in my garage. I priced out 4X8 stainless/ 16 or 18 Ga at that time--$225 delivered to my door. That was my price after two calls. I still can not believe the manufacturers do not skin these in stainless. I'm not a metallurgist either nor is stainless indestructible, but I've got to believe stainless skins would survive much better than the alternative. Internal components--water tube vessel made of stainless?? Have'nt a clue about it's survivability with the heat/cool cycles and the different grades of stainless. That brings to light the REAL WORLD testing of these units. Just how have these been tested and for how long? I think many of the owners have tested these units longer than the manufacturers. For the money you pay for these units, just how much more would stainless skins cost in the end? I "only paid $4,700" for my unit. After a circ pump got turned off (long story) and an Adobe meltdown, I had enough, was not going to reskin, buy a new water vessel and wait for the next issue. I know this rant doesn't solve anyones problems but I think most people burned these units in real world conditions. Perhaps the manufacturers should step up to the plate and "give " potential customers a little more info on these units. At 7-10K they're not giving too much away.

My 1986 Mazda pickup had less rust on it in 1991 when I sold it than my Adobe......... :cheese:

 

[2.beans]

2beans, actually my chalky areas are on the top 1/2 of the side panels only. They are about 2 feet wide by about 1 foot high and kind of ovalish shaped. Nothing on the top panel or back panel, just the sides. The spots are almost identical and I think this is because they were resting side by side with the insulation pins facing out. So I'm not sure why these areas only got chalky. I think I'll ask my buddy, who helped me build the stove, where he got the 16 ga galvanized from. I hope its not another issue with cheap material coming from China?

Pat

have you taken the side off to inspect the vessel to see if you have any build up? i know on my father inlaws seton his had bad build up and he had a chimney fire/vessel fire that made large discoloration of the back panel.any pictures?

No, haven't taken the side panels off, and I won't till spring. This is my first season with the stove. Like I said tho, these chalky spots were on the panels long before I ever put them on the stove and another 2 months after that before I fired up the Seton.

Here are a few pics. You can actually start to see some rust coming thru where the pins are now. I have a good feeling I'll be replacing these panels with SS soon. I am going to find out where the material came from because there is no way this galvanized should have corroded without any exposure to any heat, chemicals or anything other than ambient air.

Pat

it looks like it got hot and burned off the galvy. my father inlaws looked like this on the back and when i took it apart and cleaned it i got over 5 gallons (pail) of creosote off the vessel. im not saying you didnt get poor product of steel or treating of the steel just something to keep in mind seeing how it started to look like that before you even had a fire in it.

 

[Jesse-M]

I've had galvanized sheets do that when they are stacked together and get wet, doesn't take long either.

 

[DaveBP]

Like I said tho, these chalky spots were on the panels long before I ever put them on

I’ve had galvanized sheets do that when they are stacked together and get wet, doesn’t take long either.

Is this a boiler issue or a tin-knocker issue?

 

[webbie]

I think it is both.

Not all of these boilers are engineered properly from the get go. So you might have design problems in the first place - as well as installation problems, sizing, etc.

Then, after all that, you have the gory details of metal types, etc. - also of paint, treatment, etc.
IT IS ROCKET SCIENCE.....in some ways.

Interestingly enough, most furnace and boiler jackets I know of were not made with galv. although many furnace insides are made with galvalume (aluminzed steel).

Aluminized steel is a great material.

I too have seen galvanized sheet bad in the pile....before even being used.

Not to discourage innovation, but making good and efficient boilers which will last for decades is not the type of thing that anyone with a welder can do.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

. . . I think many of the owners have tested these units longer than the manufacturers. For the money you pay for these units, just how much more would stainless skins cost in the end? . . .

I might point out that we b!tch about the failings of this style unit. And when we improve certain features there will no doubt be some unforseen side affects. But the reality is, the users know there are some definite advantages of the mass-refractory natural draft units

1)Refractory retains heat which drys wood and speeds relighting
2)Refractory temps do NOT allow creosote in combustion chamber

Innovation shall not be detered!! :smirk:

 

[patch53]

"it looks like it got hot and burned off the galvy. my father inlaws looked like this on the back and when i took it apart and cleaned it i got over 5 gallons (pail) of creosote off the vessel. im not saying you didnt get poor product of steel or treating of the steel just something to keep in mind seeing how it started to look like that before you even had a fire in it."

Well, like I said I will definitely be checking the panels next spring. There is a possibility these side panels did somehow get water or moisture on them, but thats why you use galvanized... to avoid rusting out ! IMO, there is no way these panels should corrode like this EVEN if they get wet. These panels were not laying flat, they were standing on end. The inside (where the insulation pins are) looked fine. In addition, I had the top panel and back panel sitting right with these side panels were all summer and they did not show any corrosion or chalking at all.

I do agree with the other poster who expressed concern about the Seton "instruction manuals" not giving any real instructions on how these units are supposed to burn. I was under the impression as well that all you had to do was load it up with good quality seasoned wood and you would have basically no problems with condensation, creoste, etc., providing you had sufficient draft and everything else was working properly. This is hardly the case, needless to say. I can see allready that I will definitely be adding storage for next season. Unless your unit is undersized for your needs, these things will spend way too much time idling which of course is NOT what they should be doing. The Seton info says basically nothing about needing to run them hard for extended periods of time for proper combustion, and NEVER mentions the use of storage anywhere !

So far, my unit appears to be running pretty clean. There is a little build-up on the bottom of the draft tubes, but pretty clean for the most part. I am burning well seasoned red oak, mostly big splits, so that helps I'm sure.

I am going to try to call Fred Seton and ask a few questions and see what he says. John at Bethel should consider making some design changes and updating the instructions on just how these units should be operated.

Pat