Should I buy some logs?

[Sprinter]

There is an ad on local Craigs list for a logging truck that will deliver logs to your place. (broken link removed to http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/for/3112048688.html) The idea is appealing because I don't mind cutting and splitting, but I have no means to transport anything, so I can't go out and cut. I do have the space to do it. If I call this guy, what questions should I ask about the logs such as size, species, etc? I imagine they are used to selling by the MBF, but I have no idea how to judge logs and the big question I would have is how many stacked cords can I expect to get out of his logs? What would be a fair price? What is the largest size log I should try to deal with? I only have a 18" chain saw and hand maul for splitting. Or should I even entertain this? It's really hard to get anyone to deliver cord wood out here.
I've heard that a rule of thumb for conversion is about 2 to 2.2 real cords per MBF of logs. Does that seem about right? I know it's a loaded question.

 

[Mr A]

I learn a lot in this forum. Can you please tell me what MBF means? I don't know what ROT you all use, but a round log of known diameter and length can easily be calculated to determine it's cubic ft. volume. Once it is split and stacked, the stacks account for a bit more due to irregularities in the pieces and air space, I don't know how much. Lot's of guys here but truckloads of logs, They'll have better info.

 

[Sprinter]

I learn a lot in this forum. Can you please tell me what MBF means? I don't know what ROT you all use, but a round log of known diameter and length can easily be calculated to determine it's cubic ft. volume. Once it is split and stacked, the stacks account for a bit more due to irregularities in the pieces and air space, I don't know how much. Lot's of guys here but truckloads of logs, They'll have better info.

Okay, I'll tell you what MBF is if you tell me what ROT means

MBF is 1,000 board-feet, a board-foot being a solid slab 1 ft x 1ft x 1 in. What foresters use to measure timber and lumber volume. Prices are usually quoted per mbf in the industry as I understand it, being no expert on the subject.
I got the 2 or 2.2 cord per mbf from a couple of posters on another forum for wood cutters. I figure they have to be able to tell how many real-world firewood cords they can get from logs. There are so many variables like air space, many conversions are meaningless. The other problem is that logs are not a cylinder. They taper. I don't know how they deal with that.

Your turn.

 

[Mr A]

Okay, I'll tell you what MBF is if you tell me what ROT means

MBF is 1,000 board-feet, a board-foot being a solid slab 1 ft x 1ft x 1 in. What foresters use to measure timber and lumber volume. Prices are usually quoted per mbf in the industry as I understand it, being no expert on the subject.
I got the 2 or 2.2 cord per mbf from a couple of posters on another forum for wood cutters. I figure they have to be able to tell how many real-world firewood cords they can get from logs. There are so many variables like air space, many conversions are meaningless. The other problem is that logs are not a cylinder. They taper. I don't know how they deal with that.

Your turn.

Rule Of Thumb. As a 20+ year carpenter I should know more about calculating board feet. I'm sure it can learned easily enough, I just never had to used it. i'm not a contractor. Lot's of time off in the trades lately. I taught myself trigonometry last few months, on to learning board feet!
1''X1'X1"(1000)=3.086 cu. yd. 128/3.086=41.48 MBF, that doesn't seem right, please help! It IS a tree and you're not going to get perfect proportions. My math is probably wrong, and I am really enjoying my Budweiser right now!

 

[Oregon Bigfoot]

I've entertained a log load before too (last couple of years before a tornado gave me a bunch of oak). If you can get the load for a fair price, go for it! A log load will have various sizes. You will not get the perfectly straight logs like in the pictures, but you should get great firewood. My friend recently cut most of the trees on his couple of acres. He let me cut the mill rejects, and it's great firewood. I split it all by hand. The biggest diameter I cut was 30" or a bit less, although there's a bigger one I purposely left. It all split fairly easy with the maul. The big ones I used the wedges, but could split with the maul once busted in half. Fir, maple, and alder are all great firewoods here in the Pacific Northwest, and are fairly easy to split compared to the oak I was breaking my back on.

Green fir, maple, and alder are selling about $150/cord cut/split/delivered on craigslist in Oregon. I wouldn't get it if it were much more than $80/cord delivered in log form. If my memory serves me right, a full size length log truck like in the picture can hold up to 15 cord of wood. But maybe I'm too cheap too.

I'm not a board foot expert at all.

 

[Wood Duck]

I know basically nothing about logs, but I know a little math. One board foot is 1 ft x 1 ft x 1/12 ft or 1/12 cubic feet. 1000 board feet is 1000 x 1/12 cubic feet = 83.33 cubic feet. I have read that a cord of firewood, although it occupies 128 cubic feet of space holds only about 85 cubic feet of solid wood. If I am right about 85 cubic feet of solid wood per cord, then 1000 board feet is about 1 cord.

Mr. A - You're mixing up cubic yards and cubic feet. Your 3.086 cubic yards x 27 cubic feet / cubic yard = 83.3 cubic feet, same as I calculated.

 

[Sprinter]

I know basically nothing about logs, but I know a little math. One board foot is 1 ft x 1 ft x 1/12 ft or 1/12 cubic feet. 1000 board feet is 1000 x 1/12 cubic feet = 83.33 cubic feet. I have read that a cord of firewood, although it occupies 128 cubic feet of space holds only about 85 cubic feet of solid wood. If I am right about 85 cubic feet of solid wood per cord, then 1000 board feet is about 1 cord.

Mr. A - You're mixing up cubic yards and cubic feet. Your 3.086 cubic yards x 27 cubic feet / cubic yard = 83.3 cubic feet, same as I calculated.

Still something off here. Another way to do the math is that if there are 12 bf in one cf, then 128 cf x 12 is 1536 bf in a (solid) cord. Adding in about 33% of that for air spaces makes that solid cord more like 2000 airy bf, or two airy, real-world cords in that solid mbf. I saw another ROT(!) of 500 bf per cord recently which would be the same.

I still don't know how to judge a load or a log, though. And how do you account for the bark volume? It almost sounds like you have to go by the logger's MBF estimate unless you are very experienced.

 

[nate379]

Up here the cheapest I have found is $1200 for a load which works out to about 10 cords. I have been cutting/splitting it and have no trouble selling at $225/cord delivered. I covered the cost of a new splitter and my wood for this year with just a few weeks of work.

 

[Sprinter]

Up here the cheapest I have found is $1200 for a load which works out to about 10 cords. I have been cutting/splitting it and have no trouble selling at $225/cord delivered. I covered the cost of a new splitter and my wood for this year with just a few weeks of work.

Is there such a thing as a standard load? Maybe that would make it easier to figure. How do you determine what you are getting? Just experience or is there a way for me to tell quantity?
The money is going to different here than Palmer, but your experience is helpful.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

There is an ad on local Craigs list for a logging truck that will deliver logs to your place. (broken link removed to http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/for/3112048688.html) The idea is appealing because I don't mind cutting and splitting, but I have no means to transport anything, so I can't go out and cut. I do have the space to do it. If I call this guy, what questions should I ask about the logs such as size, species, etc? I imagine they are used to selling by the MBF, but I have no idea how to judge logs and the big question I would have is how many stacked cords can I expect to get out of his logs? What would be a fair price? What is the largest size log I should try to deal with? I only have a 18" chain saw and hand maul for splitting. Or should I even entertain this? It's really hard to get anyone to deliver cord wood out here.
I've heard that a rule of thumb for conversion is about 2 to 2.2 real cords per MBF of logs. Does that seem about right? I know it's a loaded question.

Sprinter, I could tell you more about board feet but won't. Forget all the math and just get on with it. I've never known anyone to sell a log load for firewood and use anything but cord and not board feet. How many cord will depend upon how big of a truck. I'd suggest you ask how many cord of wood there are and then deduct at least 10% for good start.

As for getting wood this way, it is ideal for many. Just think about it. You don't have to haul it. You don't have to cut it from the stump. You don't have any limbing to do. And the wood is right at home when you want to cut and split the stuff. How big? You probably do not have any worries with an 18" bar but figure you can handle a 30" log with ease and I doubt you would get anything larger.

If the price is right, just get it then use the experience from this year for your future years. Good luck.

 

[savageactor7]

Yup, what Savage says. If you're a woodcutter...there's nothing sweeter than cutting log loads.

 

[Sprinter]

Okay, thanks. That's the kind of info I needed. I'll give 'em a call. I've always thought that would be the way to go. Too bad I've already bought 6 cords recently, but I love stocking up.

 

[nate379]

I built new racks this year for my wood and I should be able to hold close to 20 cords. Will be enough wood for 5-6 years.

There is no standard log truck load. Just start calling around on prices and what the truck holds. They should have a pretty close idea cords wise what it will work out to.

Even if I had wooded land, I'm not sure I'd mess around with all the work of dropping trees, limbing and skidding them to a pad unless I had at least a dozer or large tractor. My brother uses a dozer and him and another guy will drop 10-12 cords in a day without too much trouble.

It gets to a point where you wonder is all that work worth saving $20 here and there? For me it works out to $120/cord and then a little bit for fuel. So far I've cut and split 6 cords and I've used about 2 gallons of gas in my saw and about 1 gallon in my splitter. It's been taking me about 5 hours a cord to have it ready to go stacked up on my trailer.

 

[Sprinter]

I built new racks this year for my wood and I should be able to hold close to 20 cords. Will be enough wood for 5-6 years.

There is no standard log truck load. Just start calling around on prices and what the truck holds. They should have a pretty close idea cords wise what it will work out to.

Even if I had wooded land, I'm not sure I'd mess around with all the work of dropping trees, limbing and skidding them to a pad unless I had at least a dozer or large tractor. My brother uses a dozer and him and another guy will drop 10-12 cords in a day without too much trouble.

It gets to a point where you wonder is all that work worth saving $20 here and there? For me it works out to $120/cord and then a little bit for fuel. So far I've cut and split 6 cords and I've used about 2 gallons of gas in my saw and about 1 gallon in my splitter. It's been taking me about 5 hours a cord to have it ready to go stacked up on my trailer.

I know. I've never felled, but I used to have a lot of fun going out to Nat'l or State Forest land with my friends, my 3/4 ton Chevy with beefed suspension and racks, my Stihl saw, cut some pretty decent stuff and overload the truck to the point I wondered if I'd get home, but that was a long time ago, gas was well south of a buck and I was much younger too. Those days are gone, but fun. Now a permit is $20, and the nearest permitted area is like 75 miles away and I don't have a truck now, anyway. I have a small wooded area here, but no deadfall or anything I want to burn. I'll have to see how much this load comes to, but I'm guessing it may still not be worth it. I'll see.

 

[bogydave]

+1 with what said above
Log length load is usually a good deal & you have the fun of CSS
& work at your pace.
I did a few loads a few years ago. It's easy way to get ahead & make a good dent on a few years worth of wood
If I were buying wood now, I'd have a log length delivered. $120/cord is a good price here.
Still allot of work, but working at home has many benefits

 

[Wood Duck]

Still something off here. Another way to do the math is that if there are 12 bf in one cf, then 128 cf x 12 is 1536 bf in a (solid) cord. Adding in about 33% of that for air spaces makes that solid cord more like 2000 airy bf, or two airy, real-world cords in that solid mbf. I saw another ROT(!) of 500 bf per cord recently which would be the same.

I still don't know how to judge a load or a log, though. And how do you account for the bark volume? It almost sounds like you have to go by the logger's MBF estimate unless you are very experienced.

The problem with your calculation is that you assume a cord is 128 cubic feet of solid wood. A cord is 128 cubic feet of wood and air space, with only about 85 cubic feet of solid wood. 85 cubic feet of solid wood x 12 board feet per cubic foot = 1020 board feet in a cord. I don't know how a cord would be as few as 500 board feet, since that would mean only about 43 cubic feet of solid wood.

 

[Sprinter]

Seems like there are all kinds of mbf's and measurement standards. Here are a couple of sites that can either clear it up or muddy it up:

(broken link removed)

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=29126.0

Personally, I don't want to think about it anymore

In any case, it's clearly not as simple as 1 bf = 1/12 cf.

I think I'll go out and do some stacking now.

 

[StuckInTheMuck]

The problem with your calculation is that you assume a cord is 128 cubic feet of solid wood. A cord is 128 cubic feet of wood and air space, with only about 85 cubic feet of solid wood. 85 cubic feet of solid wood x 12 board feet per cubic foot = 1020 board feet in a cord. I don't know how a cord would be as few as 500 board feet, since that would mean only about 43 cubic feet of solid wood.

you all are not accounting for kerf (the sawdust from processing the wood) and slab wood (the edges that can't be turned into dimensional lumber) both of which would be considered waste wood at the saw mill. There are different rules for calculating board feet. International 1/4 inch, Doyle and Schribner are the main ways of scaling logs. When you account for the waste wood, the rough estimate of 2 cords to 1000 BF works better. Smaller logs have a higher ratio of waste wood (kerf and slab) to dimensional lumber. I agree that firewood is usually sold by the cord. Sometimes (and I'm not sure how often) pulpwood (both hardwood and softwood) are sold by the ton which gives the logger incentive to get it to the mill before it starts drying out. That's my rough understanding of how it works. Here's a better explanation.. http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-191.pdf

 

[nate379]

Dave, I plan on buying more log truck loads, if you want more wood, more than welcome to cut some off the pile.

 

[Sprinter]

Dave, I plan on buying more log truck loads, if you want more wood, more than welcome to cut some off the pile.

How much to bring some down to Washington? This guy wants $1000 for "about" 7 cords. Good grief. I wonder if it's really more and he just didn't know. Guess I'll keep trolling Craigs.

 

[bogydave]

Dave, I plan on buying more log truck loads, if you want more wood, more than welcome to cut some off the pile.

Thanks.
Been plenty busy, & knowing processing wood isn't good for my golf game, I'll think about it.
Maybe I can bring a chair & watch LOL

 

[Backwoods Savage]

I built new racks this year for my wood and I should be able to hold close to 20 cords. Will be enough wood for 5-6 years.

There is no standard log truck load. Just start calling around on prices and what the truck holds. They should have a pretty close idea cords wise what it will work out to.

Even if I had wooded land, I'm not sure I'd mess around with all the work of dropping trees, limbing and skidding them to a pad unless I had at least a dozer or large tractor. My brother uses a dozer and him and another guy will drop 10-12 cords in a day without too much trouble.

It gets to a point where you wonder is all that work worth saving $20 here and there? For me it works out to $120/cord and then a little bit for fuel. So far I've cut and split 6 cords and I've used about 2 gallons of gas in my saw and about 1 gallon in my splitter. It's been taking me about 5 hours a cord to have it ready to go stacked up on my trailer.

There is an alternative to skidding the logs and that is to simply cut them up where they drop. Besides, it is cleaner this way as you won't chance getting dirt in the logs.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

The problem with your calculation is that you assume a cord is 128 cubic feet of solid wood. A cord is 128 cubic feet of wood and air space, with only about 85 cubic feet of solid wood. 85 cubic feet of solid wood x 12 board feet per cubic foot = 1020 board feet in a cord. I don't know how a cord would be as few as 500 board feet, since that would mean only about 43 cubic feet of solid wood.

I see this figure thrown around a lot and folks tend to believe it. After all, it is on the Internet and some well established folks printed it. I do not believe it for sure! While it is true that the figure could be right for some stacks, I would question that as an average. For a stack of wood to be 1/3 air, that would mean either some very poor stacking or else stacking loosely so that air can circulate to dry faster. Yes, I have some stacks that may meet this figure but certainly not all of them. If someone said 20%, then I might be inclined to believe that more than 33% air. But then, maybe it is hot air?!

 

[PapaDave]

I'll weigh in here Sprinter.
I've had 2 log loads delivered since we started this woodburning thing. Both loads quoted as 20 cord (1st one I split with my brother), and both came out almost exactly that after c/s/s.
1st load was $1300 and 2nd was 1500 about 1.5 years later (fuel went up).
After all was said and done, each cord probably cost me about $80. This was over 95% oak.
Over $140 for logs is pretty steep (here), but what are c/s/d cord going for? I can get c/s/d oak for about $165, so logs are less than 1/2. I may buy some c/s/d next year just 'cause.

 

[nate379]

That's a BIG log truck to hold 20 cords at a time, not to mention illegal to haul without a permi in many places (would be somewhere around 125,000lbs truck, trailer and load.) The guy that delivered for me had a regular semi truck with a log trailer. The kind that "folds" up together when not using and stores on the back of the semi truck. Not sure what they are called? He promised at least 9 cords, said usually it works out to 10-11 cords though.

I had figured out to heat with natural gas vs wood I needed to be under $175/cord to make it worth it.
Over that price and it's cheaper to turn on the thermostat and let the stove go cold.