Simple, forced air wood and coal burning furnace

[brenndatomu]

Well, I didn't know the Kuumas required so little electricity.
But the price tag still isn't very attractive.

Buy once cry once...it'd be the last one you'd need! Seems like it would be inconsequential in the grand scheme of building a new home!

 

[Stoker_]

Just to be clear, they are no longer made, so you'd have to find a used one, but they sold a bazillion of them...PSG Caddy. (They made a larger Max Caddy too, but that would be WAY over kill for 2k ft)
A well insulated/air sealed home would be easy to heat from a walkout (for easy wood supply) basement with either a wood furnace or even just a decent sized stove...either could be non electric if you designed the house for gravity flow heating right off the bat. Gravity heat from a coal furnace used to be really common.
If you would consider the stove route, a large unit like the BK King or one of the large Woodstock stoves would do it nicely.

Where would I find how to design a house for gravity heat?
We haven't started building yet, so changes can still be made.

 

[Stoker_]

Buy once cry once...it'd be the last one you'd need! Seems like it would be inconsequential in the grand scheme of building a new home!

That's true!
Call me cheap, but if I can save a few thousand dollars here and there, I'm all for it!

 

[brenndatomu]

Where would I find how to design a house for gravity heat?

Hmm...good question! I'ma hafta ponder that a bit! Many HVAC "pros" struggle to design/install the stuff that they were actually trained on correctly!
Any thoughts on gravity heating design @bholler ?

 

[brenndatomu]

This is the jist if it, and I think a lot of the Amish do it this way, but it can be in a more common "ductwork" manner too, just need to make sure to have good rise on your runs (or fall in the return runs) and it needs to be oversized vs forced air heating.
It done correctly it could/would be pretty darn simple though!


Or it could also be as simple as installing ductwork in a normal manner (following all best practice rules for wood heating) and just put an emergency heat dump in the plenum that opens when the power goes out...that could either dump to basement, or be routed upstairs in some fashion...either floorplan design/well placed stairwells, or some sort of duct or trap door.
I have an emergency heat dump door to the basement, just in case the power goes out and we aren't here, the door pops open the supply plenum when the fusible link melts, dumps heat to basement...mainly to protect the furnace, and limit the fire hazard of 200* (+) ducts near all that 80 year old framing! (Although it is treated with flame retardant in the furnace room)
You can do similar with a spring loaded damper motor too...set for power closed/spring open.
Lots of possibilities when building new! I'm a little jealous
Although if I were building new I'd go with a wood fired hydronic heater with 1000 gallons of hot water storage, feeding heated floors and old school cast iron radiators!

 

[Stoker_]

This is the jist if it, and I think a lot of the Amish do it this way, but it can be in a more common "ductwork" manner too, just need to make sure to have good rise on your runs (or fall in the return runs) and it needs to be oversized vs forced air heating.
It done correctly it could/would be pretty darn simple though!

View attachment 339854
Or it could also be as simple as installing ductwork in a normal manner (following all best practice rules for wood heating) and just put an emergency heat dump in the plenum that opens when the power goes out...that could either dump to basement, or be routed upstairs in some fashion...either floorplan design/well placed stairwells, or some sort of duct or trap door.
I have an emergency heat dump door to the basement, just in case the power goes out and we aren't here, the door pops open the supply plenum when the fusible link melts, dumps heat to basement...mainly to protect the furnace, and limit the fire hazard of 200* (+) ducts near all that 80 year old framing! (Although it is treated with flame retardant in the furnace room)
You can do similar with a spring loaded damper motor too...set for power closed/spring open.
Lots of possibilities when building new! I'm a little jealous
Although if I were building new I'd go with a wood fired hydronic heater with 1000 gallons of hot water storage, feeding heated floors and old school cast iron radiators!

So many options!
Options I didn't even know existed!
I'll have to check out all of those options. I was originally thinking forced air, but you've given me some new things to check out.

 

[brenndatomu]

Welcome to the rabbit hole!

 

[bholler]

Hmm...good question! I'ma hafta ponder that a bit! Many HVAC "pros" struggle to design/install the stuff that they were actually trained on correctly!
Any thoughts on gravity heating design @bholler ?

There are a few amish still doing it and I still see a few heart of the home furnaces in use. But I dont think anyone makes one designed for it now

 

[Stoker_]

I was talking to an HVAC friend of mine this morning. He said that if he was going to install a wood or coal stove, he would build a ranch style house and it two story.
Does this make sense?

 

[brenndatomu]

I was talking to an HVAC friend of mine this morning. He said that if he was going to install a wood or coal stove, he would build a ranch style house and it two story.
Does this make sense?

A 2 story ranch...is that a cape cod style? That's what we have...

 

[brenndatomu]

There are a few amish still doing it and I still see a few heart of the home furnaces in use. But I dont think anyone makes one designed for it now

Probably not, you'd either have to find a nice used Caddy, or one of the Caddy knockoffs, then do the bimetallic spring mod on the intake...which I know of an Amish stove shop that stocked that part.

I'd have to also really consider heating from the basement with a self regulating stove like the BK King, which that would probably be best with a ranch style home?

 

[begreen]

I was talking to an HVAC friend of mine this morning. He said that if he was going to install a wood or coal stove, he would build a ranch style house and it two story.
Does this make sense?

Ranch style homes often are linear in design with an open area for kitchen/dining/living and then a hallway branching off for the bedrooms and bath. Typically these homes are easy to heat the open space with the hallway section underserved and cooler. The far end bedroom and bath usually get the short end of the stick with this design.

Our home is fairly unusual for its 100yr old era, so was our last 1913 house. They have a relatively square footprint. Both have an open 1st floorplan with a large, open stairwell that convects heat easily upstairs where the bedrooms and bath are on both sides of the 2nd floor. Both homes were designed for a central, gravity furnace.

 

[Stoker_]

A 2 story ranch...is that a cape cod style? That's what we have...

No, single story ranch.

 

[Stoker_]

Ranch style homes often are linear in design with an open area for kitchen/dining/living and then a hallway branching off for the bedrooms and bath. Typically these homes are easy to heat the open space with the hallway section underserved and cooler. The far end bedroom and bath usually get the short end of the stick with this design.

Our home is fairly unusual for its 100yr old era, so was our last 1913 house. They have a relatively square footprint. Both have an open 1st floorplan with a large, open stairwell that convects heat easily upstairs where the bedrooms and bath are on both sides of the 2nd floor. Both homes were designed for a central, gravity furnace.

Interesting.
I'll talk to our builder about a ranch style house.

 

[blades]

heating ranch style with forced air coal/ wood- wild swings in temps. Hydronic in floor heat way more even very clean ( forced air, dust spread every where, filters not withstanding, Not a fan of radiators per say ( grew up with coal, hot water and radiators ( not the base board style still have cold floors with those also). Radiators just make things difficult placing furniture and the like. An acquaintance built a new home with in floor hydronic heating-zoned of course- zero drafts warm floors. Course one down fall is it is not an instant heat like forced air., but you do not have the rise and fall temp swings like forced air. AC is another area to think about but with advent of mini splits not as much of a deal breaker. Being in WI we get some pretty cold temps ( been down in the -30F once in awhile -20F not unusall) in the winter and you really notice the on /off of the forced air systems heat wise.

 

[Stoker_]

heating ranch style with forced air coal/ wood- wild swings in temps. Hydronic in floor heat way more even very clean ( forced air, dust spread every where, filters not withstanding, Not a fan of radiators per say ( grew up with coal, hot water and radiators ( not the base board style still have cold floors with those also). Radiators just make things difficult placing furniture and the like. An acquaintance built a new home with in floor hydronic heating-zoned of course- zero drafts warm floors. Course one down fall is it is not an instant heat like forced air., but you do not have the rise and fall temp swings like forced air. AC is another area to think about but with advent of mini splits not as much of a deal breaker. Being in WI we get some pretty cold temps ( been down in the -30F once in awhile -20F not unusall) in the winter and you really notice the on /off of the forced air systems heat wise.

I was always under the impression that that type of heating is quite costly to install.

 

[salecker]

Me on the other hand am a big fan of Cast Iron radiators
I placed them where there are zero issues for furniture
All flame sources are in a building about 100 ft from my house so no dirt,dust,ash or bugs from burning wood make it to the house.In an extended power outage all i need is to supply my boiler with power and my house stay warm. Rad are all controlled by TRV's so no power required in the house to stay warm.
No flame source in the house makes it easy to sleep at night without insurance.

 

[Stoker_]

I went back to the Wood Master dealer today. I looked at some of their units. I don't know, those outdoor units are tempting.

 

[brenndatomu]

I went back to the Wood Master dealer today. I looked at some of their units. I don't know, those outdoor units are tempting.

Don't go with one of those old school smoke dragons "campfire in a steel box" type outdoor boilers, you'll forever be a slave to it...they don't call them forest eaters for nothing! Not really that much cheaper to buy than an indoor unit either.
Plus, any neighbors you have within a 1/4 mile will hate you for smoking up the whole neighborhood all winter

 

[Stoker_]

Don't go with one of those old school smoke dragons "campfire in a steel box" type outdoor boilers, you'll forever be a slave to it...they don't call them forest eaters for nothing! Not really that much cheaper to buy than an indoor unit either.
Plus, any neighbors you have within a 1/4 mile will hate you for smoking up the whole neighborhood all winter

I just figured out the cost to run the PEX piping to my house. With the insurance offset minimum of 50' from the house, I would pay over $700 with taxes just for the pipe. That doesn't include installation costs.
That brings us back to the Kuuma or Froling.

 

[blades]

lot of areas have ban on owb units my own included , most around me are farms they are all grandfathered in.

 

[sloeffle]

I just figured out the cost to run the PEX piping to my house. With the insurance offset minimum of 50' from the house, I would pay over $700 with taxes just for the pipe. That doesn't include installation costs.
That brings us back to the Kuuma or Froling.

Froling install will be thousands of dollars more than an OWB. I think that leaves you with one option if you are on a tight budget.

I went from a wood furnace (Caddy) to an OWB and I'd never go back. All of the mess and bugs are outside. If I want the house warmer, I just turn up the thermostat. The only downside is trudging outside in the cold to load it up.

 

[salecker]

I don't mind the trudge outside as the boiler building is my saw workshop
So i can easily get immersed in a project when i tend the boiler.
Plus last year i was able to add TV to the boiler bulding

 

[Stoker_]

I think we're going to check this one out. I really don't see what coal gets me the more I think about it. https://www.lamppakuuma.com/vapor-fire-100-2/