Small low emission inserts

[Oldfrechguy]

Hi all,

I live in a lovely 1942 English Cottage which spans over 3600 square feet on three floors (basement included). The house has two functional open fireplaces, one in the basement and one in the den on the main floor. It is currently heated with a forced air electric furnace and even if power is rather cheap in this part of the continent, the costs are going up and are considerable as the house is old and somewhat drafty.

I have been pondering with the idea of modernizing the basement large (uneven) masonry fireplace by putting an insert into it. The arched opening is 30 inches wide, sides are 21 inches high (26 in the middle of the arch), 19,5 inches deep with a trapezoidal base yielding a width of 22 inches in the back.

In this part of Canada, there is a strong push to have stoves comply with the current EPA emission standards and their evolution with a target of less than 1,3 gr/h as of 2020 (this might be amended since the new EPA standards which just came out will "only" target less than 2 gr/h in 2020).

Although the basement floor plan is open, the fireplace is diagonally facing an area which my wife considers to be incompatible with an insert projecting onto the hearth. Thus, the insert shall be flush.

So, from what I have read so far it seems that only the hybrid type of inserts could currently satisfy the 2020 EPA emission standards but unfortunately they are not that common. Travis Industries large flush insert would be too large for my fireplace opening and its small one would be indeed...small, and maybe worthless as far as a backup heating source??

So, my question to you, seasoned wood burners, would be plainly: What should I do?

- wait, until more manufacturers strive to comply with the upcoming (less than five years) stringent EPA emission standards and come up offering more choices in term of unit size?

- embark on a painful remodelling of the nice stone opening of the current fireplace to fit the large hybryd fire insert?

-go for it now with a small hybrid fyre insert, hoping it is not wasted money?

Of course, any useful suggestion will be welcome...

 

[begreen]

Welcome. Initially, the large Regency/Hampton hybrid insert sounds like it may be looking for. I would not go small and I would not be focused on flush inserts. There are some notably good inserts that extend out onto the hearth that are excellent heaters. There are distinct advantages to a non-flush unit including better heating, an ash lip, and more options. Your hearth can be extended at floor level to accommodate. This hearth extension can be prefab or site fabricated. Hopefully you will get some responses from insert owners soon. I need to head out the door but will revisit this thread later in the day to explore options if you are interested.

 

[Grisu]

Is the arch exactly 26" up from the hearth? If it is a tad more the Woodstock Progress Hybrid stove needs 26.5" with the short leg kit, if I remember correctly. You may need to extend the hearth, though, and check whether the stove is ULC listed or can be installed regardless.

Not that many stoves/inserts out there yet that are compliant with the lower emission standards. Maybe take a look at this list: http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-08/documents/certifiedwood.pdf

Have you considered a pellet insert?

 

[Oldfrechguy]

Gee guys,
yours were prompt responses.

begren, thanks for pointing me to the Regency site. Despite looking at the April 2015 list of EPA certified stoves, their cat inserts had escaped me. It looks like the CI2600 could fit in, tightly though. I cannot get the full specs of it yet as I am blessed with a server error 404 when trying to retrieve them from the web site. Over the last few days, I have been reading the pros and cons of the travis hybrid fyre products. How do the regency hybrids compare?

Grisu, the woodstock progress hybrid is too tall, even in the short leg configuration as it requires 28,5 inches clearance at its highest. Good thing you made me recheck the fireplace opening dimensions though, as the high point of the arch peaks at 27 inches from the hearth (I had been fooled by a glass door frame still standing in there).
As to the pellets suggestion, well, cordwood is easy to get around here and I was under the impression that the whole process behind pellet making was leaving very little biomass where the trees are harvested from, contributing to soil depletion (but I did not delve into the topic seriously). Also, I see this fireplace insert as a heating backup source in case of power outage; don't pellet stove require electricity to run?

Got to say that I am impressed with the quality of the early feedback I am getting on this forum!

 

[Grisu]

When you install the Progress Hybrid in front of the fireplace the lintel only needs to be high enough to fit the rear pipe under it. Those are the specs from the Woodstock website:
"Rear Flue Height (center) Short Leg Kit: 22.75”."
For a 6" single-wall that adds up to ~26", even a tad less than I thought. Your hearth needs to be deep enough to accommodate the stove and you need to check clearances with mantel etc. Where in Quebec are you? Woodstock is in Lebanon, New Hampshire, just down I-91.

Pellet inserts/stoves indeed require electricity. A small backup generator would be required during a power outage. In that regard, a (wood)stove will usually perform better than an insert when the power is out plus give you a potential cooking surface.

Here is a long thread about the CI2600: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-ci2600-fireplace-insert-risky-costly.132252/

And here would be one about the Progress installed in front of a fireplace:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/woodstock-progress-hybrid-with-short-legs-install-pics.81614/

 

[NYSB]

I have owned the Regency CI2600 for a few months and we love it. It seems the manufacturer has made some minor adjustments to the newer units leaving the factory which seem to have solved some of the issues you read about on the thread. I find it to be an efficient heater. We can easily heat our 2000 sqft house with it. It looks very good and can burn all night. Once it reaches operating temperature it absolutely cranks out heat. The built-in fan works very well to circulate the air around. This February we had many 0 degree (F) days and it was a toasty 75+ inside our house running a low-to-medium damper setting.

 

[Oldfrechguy]

Unexpected high chimney problem.

I truly did not expect that one. I first followed Grisu's advice and read through the very long thread on the CI2600. In the end and with the help of NYSB, I decided to go for it. It took a long time to find a distributor, then to have the potential installers visit for a preliminary inspection. Those installers had yet to install their first CI2600; they requested to see a demo before they could opine and the distributor got one in the end. The machine could be crammed in the fireplace and it seems that a custom faceplate could even be designed to fit the insert nicely within the confine of its the arched stone opening.

But, since that fireplace is in the basement of a two storeys (above ground) english cottage and that the installers estimated the chimney height at 40 feet, I was told that the installation of the insert could not be guaranteed for a chimney flue height any higher than 35 feet as it would present a risk of "overdraft" in a catalyst. What a downer! Actually, I did measure the chimney height at 35' 9", from its peak to the top of the fireplace opening. I have since communicated with Regency; their nice technical advisor, has sort of reassured me that such a small discrepancy from the specs should not be end of the world.

Also, to correct a crossdraft problem, the installers had told me that the flue of the desired insert would need to be extended over the chimney crown somewhat.

What do you guys think?

Would an extra foot or two in flue length make any material difference in the performance of the insert and pose a genuine risk for its catalyst?

What about the importance of having the installation "guaranteed" by the vendor?

Thanks.

 

[begreen]

If this were a freestanding stove there would be the option of adding a draft damper to reduce draft. This is not an option with an insert. That means the restriction would need to be at the top of the flue which is more permanent given its height. With that tall of a chimney I would make my choice of insert cautiously. Most cat stove mfg. warn of the dangers of too strong draft. Perhaps this is not the best application for a cat stove? If so, there are many other fireplace inserts on the market.

 

[brad wilton]

You need dry wood for the newer stoves to work their best,around here what they call dry is not even close to what it needs to burn properly

 

[Oldfrechguy]

Begreen, what sort of restriction at the top of the flue can be contemplated?

 

[begreen]

Sometimes a reducer will work. It may take some experimentation. A 6" x 5" or sometimes even a 6" x 4" reducer may be needed if the draft is huge.