Smaller Wood Insert into LP fireplace?

[Oregon Fire]

Hi All,
A friend has an LP gas fired fireplace - manufactured zero clearance design. I am not sure how this differs from a "zero clearance fireplace". I notice that some of the smaller fireplace inserts can be fit into zero clearance fireplaces. Would this LP fired zero clearance also be considered a "zero clearance fireplace". What are his options? He is thinking about going to a pellet stove because the flue requirements are less stringent. He has 6 or 7 acres that is wooded and has a plentiful supply of wood, but thinks pellets would be cleaner to handle and the heat source will be easier to modulate via thermostatic control, etc.

The smaller pacific energy insert looked good to me, also the smaller jotul insert - what would it take to mount one of these in the space?

The home is 2000 square feet or so - very well insulated newer construction. 2 stories. Climate is moderate - located near bremerton, washington.

He needs to get some supplemental/primary wood fired heat. He is remotely located and is currently heating his home with LP gas and getting killed financially.

jeff

 

[wg_bent]

I don't believe you can do this. The chimney is not designed to handle this. You must ensure that the insert is listed to be installed where ever you plan for.

 

[Corie]

I'll second that. When certified for Zero Clearence installation, they are referring to wood zero clearence units from how I understand things. The only solution if there is a gas fireplace in place will be to remove the gas unit entirely.

 

[Oregon Fire]

Okay. Thanks. The space is 44" wide and 22" deep. Other options? I talked to him about creating an alcove to partially stick a wood stove into... But he is figuring that he will need $1500 to $2000 to get a fireplace chase in place - if he does that, he wants to have something big enough to do more than just supplemental heating....

I was thinking of a jotul bear wood stove or something like that in an alcove configuration.

jeff

 

[Corie]

That's darn near the size required for the Quadrafire 7100!

(broken link removed to http://www.quadrafire.com/products/fireplaces/woodFireplaceDetail.asp?f=7100fp)


The fireplace has the ability to use new ductwork to move heat around the house. Also has a tremendously large firebox and huge glass doors. Probably worth a look, although the price might be a bit higher than he was planning on spending.


Also as far as small alcove woodstoves go, Hearthstone also makes a small unit meant for mounting in front of fireplaces which might for for him. Its called the Homestead and you can check it out here:

(broken link removed to http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/wood_stoves/homestead/)

 

[Les T]

Hello All,

Hey, this sounds just like my situation...Oh, it is! Thank you for posting this Jeff.

There is allot of experience here, maybe someone can offer some advice. Here is some more information on my application;

The LP gas fireplace will be coming out, don't use it anyway because it basically wastes fuel and makes a nice flame to look at with a very noisy blower. There is currently a steel can installed for this fireplace. According to the local dealer (I'm looking into a Harman Accentra) it can stay and be utilized, along with the installed 6" vent pipe. The 3" vent pipe needed for the pellet application can be run through the existing 6" vent pipe and the existing fresh air intake can be used as well. This is all contained in wood framing, including the chase (I would estimate the inside dimension of the current chase would be about 8"x 10") The wood framed chase exits the first story roof and runs outside the second story exterior wall and up through the roof.

Yes, I have plenty of thick woods on my property and could easily heat the house by wood heat just on the blow down I get yearly. If I must remodel the complete fireplace area, the chase, and what I guess would be about $1500 for chimney pipe, I won't go this route. If there is an adequate wood burner (2,000 sq. ft. 2 story, well insulated) that would not require a full remodel of the structure for a safe install, it would be the first choice. Otherwise I may have to become a pellethead.

Our home is currently ALL propane, heat, water, dryer, cooking. You would not believe the price of Propane in this area, and we were at the mercy of the cartel leader!

Thanks to all,
Les

 

[Corie]

Yes, it these situations the pellet stove is probably to easiest and most cost efficient stove to install. Depending on the manufacturer, many pellet stove inserts can be installed in very close proximity to framing members and required a significantly less expensive chimney system.

 

[restorer]

Welcome new guys to the forum. Just to clarify, being a pellethead is not a bad thing. In reading both posted questions, seems to me the better answer is a pellet insert in a Zero-Clearance firebox. I think the gas flue will need to be replaced, and if two story may need to be a 4" based on the manufacturer's specs. I might suggest looking at Lopi and Avalon inserts. Late last year the larger inserts were certified for installing in a ZC box. Unfortunately they need electricity to run, but do a great job in heating 1,500+ sf in most areas in Coastal Oregon and Washington.

 

[Les T]

Thank you for the welcome,

Uncle Rich, The vent run is straight up, no bends and has a total length of 23 feet. The gentleman doing the estimate felt that using the stove manufacturer's optional 3" reducer and using 3" within the existing 6" for this application would be fine. What do you think?

Corie, the 7100fp looks like a great furnace! Just looked between the ceiling and the 1st story roof and it just so happens the main 24" diameter existing air distribution duct runs right past the existing 6"vent pipe. Hmmm. Still looks like a major refit but what nice system! Price for the stove itself is more, but the local dealer seems pretty proud of the pellet stove I am looking at, still considering negotiating. I may start another topic regarding this. They have been around for a long time (25+ years) first in this area with pellet, trained staff and they can install it, therefore are married to it also. They seem really dedicated to fire.

I am not opposed to being a pellet head, may just be ideal for me. Hard to look into my backyard and watch fuel just rot away though!

Appreciate the input, all very good.
Les

 

[wg_bent]

Yes, it these situations the pellet stove is probably to easiest and most cost efficient stove to install. Depending on the manufacturer, many pellet stove inserts can be installed in very close proximity to framing members and required a significantly less expensive chimney system.

Corie is that true of most coal inserts also?

 

[Gooserider]

Given that you are looking at going to burning for reasons of economics, I don't know that you'd benefit that much by going pellethead... You'd still have to buy pellets, which according to the stuff I've seen, tend to be only slightly less expensive than LP. (Per discussions of the Fuel Price calculator, LP and Electric are the only heat sources that are more expensive than pellets...) However I will certainly agree that pellets are probably easier to deal with, give better thermostatic control, and less work than cord wood (though more than LP)

Even purchased, cordwood is MUCH less expensive than pellets - Around here pellets are about $200 / ton purchased now, and stored all summer. A load of log-length is about 6-7 cords, and runs about $300 (processed yourself) Since you have the wood supply already, you would even save that.

Your up-front expense to install a fireplace or wood stove would be higher than a pellet unit, but I suspect you'd save enough additional to get a far faster payback and lower long term operating cost.

Gooserider

 

[Les T]

No doubt the wood burner would be the cheapest in the long haul Gooserider (I used to work on Moto Guzzi's a way long time ago) from what I have gathered from the information on this forum and on my own;

Refit/remodel the hearth, enclosure, the whole chase and a suitable chimney pipe would be up to $3K (more?) easily in labor/materials (plus the insert either way we go) Not to mention that the home is barely 10 years old, the wife and I don't look forward to a remodel in this area. Then she just reminded me that my mild case of MS would certainly not get along with the labor of processing the wood, especially in the warmer months I would be doing it in. I forget all about this when I'm feeling well! No problem getting the logs out in 4-6 foot sections, maybe I would be best off to sell it in this length of sections locally to help offset the project cost?

Pellets at this time in our location are 211 per ton, probably going up. I plan on 3 ton and see how it goes, say $633 plus tax the first year (or $14.79 per million BTU) Electricity here is 8 cents/kWh (or $23.45 per million BTU) Now here is the fleecing I got into with Propane(leased tank, level pay) March of '06 $2.35/gal. to march of '07 $3.47/gal. 1,295 gallons for the year at a cost of $4245 and change. Pellets look cheap! All the local propane dealers I called are within 20 cents of each other, I just found a supplier that isn't local that will deliver for $2.00 a gallon. Still need to cook, heat water and dry clothes with propane (for the time being) but it is a good start for us.

I think propane dealers absolutely hate their customers around here!
Les

 

[Oregon Fire]

Hey Les,
I was thinking about it this morning. I think you should remove the faux fireplace chase off the side of your house. (and fix the siding after). Then you could just run stove pipe up the side of the house above the second floor. It will look "a little bit country" - but the house is country in architecture.... (big wrap-around porch, etc. And you gotta admit - you live in the "country"... If you don't like the look of the pipe you could paint flames on it and then you'd be "a little bit rock and roll" (ala donny and marie 1975)...

Then all you would really have to worry about is restructuring the firebox into an alcove to accept a wood burning option..

1. woodstove in a small alcove.
2. Framing for that beautiful quad fireplace...

jeff

p.s. I think that natural gas is being confused with LP gas in the cost discussion. LP is *way* more expensive than anything else. Particularly in your neighborhood...

 

[begreen]

No doubt the wood burner would be the cheapest in the long haul Gooserider (I used to work on Moto Guzzi's a way long time ago) from what I have gathered from the information on this forum and on my own;

Refit/remodel the hearth, enclosure, the whole chase and a suitable chimney pipe would be up to $3K (more?) easily in labor/materials (plus the insert either way we go) Not to mention that the home is barely 10 years old, the wife and I don't look forward to a remodel in this area. Then she just reminded me that my mild case of MS would certainly not get along with the labor of processing the wood, especially in the warmer months I would be doing it in. I forget all about this when I'm feeling well! No problem getting the logs out in 4-6 foot sections, maybe I would be best off to sell it in this length of sections locally to help offset the project cost?

Pellets at this time in our location are 211 per ton, probably going up. I plan on 3 ton and see how it goes, say $633 plus tax the first year (or $14.79 per million BTU) Electricity here is 8 cents/kWh (or $23.45 per million BTU) Now here is the fleecing I got into with Propane(leased tank, level pay) March of '06 $2.35/gal. to march of '07 $3.47/gal. 1,295 gallons for the year at a cost of $4245 and change. Pellets look cheap! All the local propane dealers I called are within 20 cents of each other, I just found a supplier that isn't local that will deliver for $2.00 a gallon. Still need to cook, heat water and dry clothes with propane (for the time being) but it is a good start for us.

I think propane dealers absolutely hate their customers around here!
Les

Sounds like you're dealing with Suburban, Les. We had the same situation. Although we had a propane furnace, we ran the house on wood + propane for 4 yrs, then wood + pellets for 5 years. The pellet stove dropped costs to a much more reasonable level. In a newer house with better windows and insulation it should be fine. But if the house is well set up, have you considered a heat pump? That's what we have now + the woodstove and it is working well. Our highest heating cost for this unusually cold January was about $60 + about 1/2 cord of scrounged wood. Not bad for an 84 yr old, 2000 sq ft house.

 

[seaken]

When talking about "zero-clearance" over the internet it is nearly impossible to say for sure what is and what isn't going to be "allowed" or "safe". However, in most cases, the entire "zero-clearance" system must be removed when the space is to be re-purposed. If your local dealer is talking about a free-standing Accentra he/she may be thinking of just using the existing 6" flue as a "chase", or conduit, for the newly installed pellet pipe. That MAY be allowed but there are no codes that specifically address this type of install. Is it safe? Who knows? How was the original 6" pipe installed to begin with? What kind of insulation factor is involved?

If allowed by the local AHJ, I would recommend using 1" clearance pellet vent pipe, or fully insulated liner.

If your dealer is suggesting the use of the Accentra Insert without the use of the Harman Zero-clearance Kit, I would decline. All "zero-clearance" products are tested as a "SYSTEM" and cannot be field adapted and maintain any kind of safety listing. It should not be done.

If the dealer is suggesting the Accentra Insert WITH the Harman Zero-clearance Kit, it may be okay if it will all fit within the same space, and use the existing 6" pipe, again, only as a conduit, to prevent the need for total removal and re-build of the chase.

If you want to do wood, the entire gas unit will have to be removed, pipe and all, and a new wood zero-clearance can take it's place. The cost of chimney and chase rebuild will make this plan more costly.

In short, either use the free-standing Accentra, with proper clearances to "alcove" walls and ceilings, or use the Harman Zero-clearance Kit with the Accentra Insert. Do not use the Accentra Insert without the ZC Kit. Use either 1" clearance "Pellet Vent" pipe, or fully insulated pellet flex liner for venting.

Safety first.

Sean

There is currently a steel can installed for this fireplace. According to the local dealer (I'm looking into a Harman Accentra) it can stay and be utilized, along with the installed 6" vent pipe. The 3" vent pipe needed for the pellet application can be run through the existing 6" vent pipe and the existing fresh air intake can be used as well. This is all contained in wood framing, including the chase (I would estimate the inside dimension of the current chase would be about 8"x 10") The wood framed chase exits the first story roof and runs outside the second story exterior wall and up through the roof.

Thanks to all,
Les