Same here with field and pole mounted arrays. Additionally, we were early adopters which required a made in WA state sticker to qualify for the incentive program.
Solar for me... sounds shady!
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Quick update....
The 'prepaid lease' or PPL deal, that got me to $2.15/W fell through. The bank/partner has a min threshold for expected output per watt, like 1 kWh/yr per Watt, or 1000 hours rated power/yr. I am currently 50% of that (wo tree removal) and maybe 75-80% of that after removing a few trees. I played phone tag with them for a few weeks to get an application (largely my fault with travel) and they spent a few weeks haggling with the bank before I told them to drop it.
So I now have TWO cash quotes that are closer to $2.50/W_DC, and my (personally estimated) positive NPV is closer to 10-11 years. I will probably pull the trigger anyway.
I"m seeing it as a ~10 year hedge against kWh inflation (and I am currently spending close to $5000/yr for electricity (and zero for fossils). If electricity goes up, I get short payback. If it doesn't, then I am also good. Hedging often costs money, and helps with sleeping at night, although I already do that pretty well. 😴
The 'prepaid lease' or PPL deal, that got me to $2.15/W fell through. The bank/partner has a min threshold for expected output per watt, like 1 kWh/yr per Watt, or 1000 hours rated power/yr. I am currently 50% of that (wo tree removal) and maybe 75-80% of that after removing a few trees. I played phone tag with them for a few weeks to get an application (largely my fault with travel) and they spent a few weeks haggling with the bank before I told them to drop it.
So I now have TWO cash quotes that are closer to $2.50/W_DC, and my (personally estimated) positive NPV is closer to 10-11 years. I will probably pull the trigger anyway.
I"m seeing it as a ~10 year hedge against kWh inflation (and I am currently spending close to $5000/yr for electricity (and zero for fossils). If electricity goes up, I get short payback. If it doesn't, then I am also good. Hedging often costs money, and helps with sleeping at night, although I already do that pretty well. 😴
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you should pull the trigger.
Paying the price of 11 future years of electricity usage at todays cost (already good even if panels die at year 11 - because you've locked in zero kWh inflation cost for that time!), and then on top getting electricity at least 15 more years for that cost (plus some incidental micro inverter failure replacement) is a no-brainer imo.
The hedge is "maybe kWh prices will go down".
When did they last? I mean the probability of that is <5% imo (at least where I live, given strong solar presence, and poor power plant presence).
And then you have the additional insurance of 15 more years for zero added cost.
(I'm at 0.86 kWh/(yr Watt-installed) )
edit: of course if you have the cash, you don't pay interest. But you could invest the money and get a return on that investment that may be larger than the inflation of kWh cost.
Yet, would you? (invest that money)
And the investment does not necessarily (but can) provide the environmental benefits of the PV system.
And with your electric vehicle(s), you have a battery too that could (with minimal changes to the system in your home) keep you running during power outages indefinitely b/c of rooftop generation.
Paying the price of 11 future years of electricity usage at todays cost (already good even if panels die at year 11 - because you've locked in zero kWh inflation cost for that time!), and then on top getting electricity at least 15 more years for that cost (plus some incidental micro inverter failure replacement) is a no-brainer imo.
The hedge is "maybe kWh prices will go down".
When did they last? I mean the probability of that is <5% imo (at least where I live, given strong solar presence, and poor power plant presence).
And then you have the additional insurance of 15 more years for zero added cost.
(I'm at 0.86 kWh/(yr Watt-installed) )
edit: of course if you have the cash, you don't pay interest. But you could invest the money and get a return on that investment that may be larger than the inflation of kWh cost.
Yet, would you? (invest that money)
And the investment does not necessarily (but can) provide the environmental benefits of the PV system.
And with your electric vehicle(s), you have a battery too that could (with minimal changes to the system in your home) keep you running during power outages indefinitely b/c of rooftop generation.
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I'm in the northern Monadnock region of NH and have an 8,000 kh system. My best year, 2024, was 7.1Mwh. Most years it is 6.8. This was planned for since I have shade issues on the East and south sides from trees and buildings (depending on time of year). The area I live in has like 2 sunny days January thru February (at low sun angle). Add all the snow days (shallow roof so it doesn't melt or dump well, but high enough that I can't reach with a 28' roof rake), and I do not have an optimum set up. Normally, for my usage, they they would put up 15 panels, I had the installation company put up 20. I have a hip roof so 7 panels on the east and west sides (each), and 6 panels on the south side (that side can't handle any more).
I calculated a 12-15 year payback. I honestly don't care and don't track it - with electric costs changing every 6 months, who can keep track anyway? With net metering, I haven't paid a bill since February 2022 and shouldn't for the rest of my life.
I paid cash for my system. I was originally saving for a garage. But when I got the money saved, the garage cost had gone up 30% (2021-2022, when all the shortages of materials an labor hit). I couldn't justify the added cost to myself so pivoted. I think that was one of the best decisions I ever made. Didn't hurt that the tax credit went from 24% to 30% that year (I committed prior to that happening). I was actually expecting it to go down to 20 or 22% since it was scheduled to drop.
I calculated a 12-15 year payback. I honestly don't care and don't track it - with electric costs changing every 6 months, who can keep track anyway? With net metering, I haven't paid a bill since February 2022 and shouldn't for the rest of my life.
I paid cash for my system. I was originally saving for a garage. But when I got the money saved, the garage cost had gone up 30% (2021-2022, when all the shortages of materials an labor hit). I couldn't justify the added cost to myself so pivoted. I think that was one of the best decisions I ever made. Didn't hurt that the tax credit went from 24% to 30% that year (I committed prior to that happening). I was actually expecting it to go down to 20 or 22% since it was scheduled to drop.
I pulled the trigger 10+ years ago on the first 5 kW array and that had a payback of 16 years. I never felt like it was a bad decision, and now more than ever I am happy that I did it when I did. You won't second guess your decision.
I expect both quotes will be very similar in terms of $$$s. One company has been in business longer and emphasizes their repair (labor) and roof penetration warranty for 25 years. The other company is smaller, younger, and never mentioned any warranty.
Seems pretty cut and dried.
You guys have good repair and roof leak warranties? (if you're not ground mount).
Seems pretty cut and dried.
You guys have good repair and roof leak warranties? (if you're not ground mount).
You need that warranty written down!
I just had my solar guy out a month ago to replace a melted connector on the AC side. He said he'd never seen it happen before, almost didn't believe me and started troubleshooting something else. After I convinced him to check into it he had it replaced in 20 mins and didn't charge me anything.
I just had my solar guy out a month ago to replace a melted connector on the AC side. He said he'd never seen it happen before, almost didn't believe me and started troubleshooting something else. After I convinced him to check into it he had it replaced in 20 mins and didn't charge me anything.
I don't remember the details of the warranty on roof and panels (apart from panel performance warranty) and I'd have to dig down to find that.
Some complications also with the installer (going out of business locally and) transferring the (same) warranty to a bigger established company.
But I do remember the warranty on roof leaks at pv penetrations was 20 or 25 years or so.
Some complications also with the installer (going out of business locally and) transferring the (same) warranty to a bigger established company.
But I do remember the warranty on roof leaks at pv penetrations was 20 or 25 years or so.
Chances are not zero given the long lifetime of PV systems.
(Mine was a company from Hawaii trying to get a foothold in the lower 48 because the market in Hawaii is saturated with systems. They didn't do their research and it didn't work outwell for them. For me it did and they were good in transferring us to an established company.)
(Mine was a company from Hawaii trying to get a foothold in the lower 48 because the market in Hawaii is saturated with systems. They didn't do their research and it didn't work outwell for them. For me it did and they were good in transferring us to an established company.)
Sorry for the drama, but the second quote (say company 2) came in 1% cheaper than the first quote. They are using smaller microinverters, so more clipping (320 VA versus 380 VA on 450W panels). The latter ratio 380/450 seems pretty typical, 320/480 is not.
The bigger issue is that both companies spec'ed 28 panel systems, with different arrangements on my roof planes. The second quote has a configuration that I think violates fire codes... requiring 3' clearance from the roof ridge AND a 3' wide path from eave to ridge. On both planes. Company 1 tetrised 28 panels in while respecting that rule, the other company slapped 28 panels down and said it was fine, even after I flagged it for them.
I showed diagrams of both plans to Gemini Pro, and Gem thought one plan would be denied a permit in my township.
Company 2 has a 10 year labor defect and roof penetration warranty. Company 1 has not sent me a contract yet but verbally said it was 25 years (but ofc who know how long they will stay in business).
The bigger issue is that both companies spec'ed 28 panel systems, with different arrangements on my roof planes. The second quote has a configuration that I think violates fire codes... requiring 3' clearance from the roof ridge AND a 3' wide path from eave to ridge. On both planes. Company 1 tetrised 28 panels in while respecting that rule, the other company slapped 28 panels down and said it was fine, even after I flagged it for them.
I showed diagrams of both plans to Gemini Pro, and Gem thought one plan would be denied a permit in my township.
Company 2 has a 10 year labor defect and roof penetration warranty. Company 1 has not sent me a contract yet but verbally said it was 25 years (but ofc who know how long they will stay in business).
Is that a local requirement? I definitely don't have that and wouldn't have been able to fit many panels if I did!
I have a 10 year workmanship warranty that is in the contract. I have a standing seam roof and the panels are attached differently - no penetration, so don't need that.
In 2022, everyone and their brother was setting up either a new solar installation company or opening up an office in NH (one company was based in RI). The one from RI sent me a joke of a representative, another company really didn't want my business (kept telling me reasons I didn't want solar - I think it was too small of a job for them), and all others were less than a year in business, so it made it very easy to pick the local installer that had been in business since something like 2003.
Last I knew the requirement was 18" from the ridge. Your local codes may be stricter, or maybe the codes have been updated.
Feel free to tell them if you have ideas on configuration or amount of panels / type of equipment. I turned the proposals I got down as no one even proposed putting panels on my west side (the one side that has no shade). Both companies loaded my south side (which can only hold 6-7 panels) and then loaded th rest on the east side (both of which have shade challenges, even in winter). This is what the RI company sent me (which was 14x400w panels - which didn't add enough for the 30% extra I had originally asked for anyway).
I told them I knew that my winter production on the west side would be crap, but summer it would be outstanding. It would work very well with net metering so I wanted panels on the west. The RI company placed 3 on the west when I told them to add more panels and include the west side - LOL. The below is actually their 3rd try and then they basically quit responding to me when I asked them for more revisions.
The local company I went with was more thoughtful about using the west side. I also had the local company add 2 more panels to the total (they proposed 18, and I asked for 20). The company I chose worked wonderfully with my ideas and knowledge of my property. It took 4 tries for them to get where I wanted them to be (below), but they made it
My installing company also spec'ed using IQ8+, while the RI company spec'ed IQ7+.
Here is Gemini Output:
In Pennsylvania, residential solar photovoltaic (PV) installations are governed by the Pennsylvania Uniform Construction Code (UCC), which incorporates the standards of the International Residential Code (IRC Section R324.6) and the International Fire Code (IFC Section 1205.2).
One company made a 28 panel design that fit that code, the other made a 28 panel design that did not. I believe I am over 33% total roof area.
Gemini also thinks that mmany US states including Mass follow the same code.
In Pennsylvania, residential solar photovoltaic (PV) installations are governed by the Pennsylvania Uniform Construction Code (UCC), which incorporates the standards of the International Residential Code (IRC Section R324.6) and the International Fire Code (IFC Section 1205.2).
1. Roof Ridge Clearance (Ridge Setbacks)
Clearance requirements at horizontal ridges are determined by the percentage of total roof area occupied by the solar panels (in plan view):- Arrays occupying 33% or less of the total roof area: A minimum 18-inch (457 mm) clear setback is required on both sides of the horizontal ridge.
- Arrays occupying more than 33% of the total roof area: A minimum 36-inch (914 mm) clear setback is required on both sides of the horizontal ridge.
2. Access Pathways (Eave to Ridge)
To allow firefighters safe traversal from the roof edge to the top of the roof, pathways must meet the following criteria:- Pathway Width: Every pathway must be at least 36 inches (914 mm) wide.
- Pathway Coverage: For each roof plane where a PV array is installed, a 36-inch continuous pathway from the lowest roof edge (eave/gutter) to the ridge must be provided. This path can sit on the same roof plane as the panels, an adjacent roof plane, or straddle both.
- Structural Support: Pathways must be situated over structurally strong areas of the roof (such as directly over load-bearing walls or rafters) capable of supporting the weight of firefighters and their gear.
- Obstruction Minimums: Pathways must be located in areas free of major obstructions, such as skylights, plumbing vent pipes, conduits, or mechanical equipment.
3. Key Exceptions & Variations
- Low-Slope Roofs: Roofs with a slope of 2:12 or less (around 17% grade) are generally exempt from standard residential eave-to-ridge access and ridge setback requirements.
- Detached Non-Habitable Buildings: Detached garages, carports, sheds, and solar trellises do not require these access pathways or ridge setbacks.
- Emergency Escape Openings: Solar modules cannot be placed directly underneath emergency escape and rescue windows (e.g., second-story bedroom egress windows).
- Local AHJ Discretion: The local municipal Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) or local fire official has the authority to grant exceptions or require specific pathway locations depending on local fire department equipment and access strategies.
One company made a 28 panel design that fit that code, the other made a 28 panel design that did not. I believe I am over 33% total roof area.
Gemini also thinks that mmany US states including Mass follow the same code.
Given the above, I think that they used 18"(I thought it was 2 ft from just looking at it, but maybe they did 18").
I looked up the design that the final quote was, and this is the screenshot:
![[Hearth.com] Solar for me... sounds shady!](https://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/1786039460633-webp.348534/ "[Hearth.com] Solar for me... sounds shady!")
Seems they did only put a 3 ft path on one side (there is a plumbing vent there too). The rest is significantly smaller.
So I wonder whether *all* spacings need to be 3 ft, or (at least) 1 path needs to be?
I looked up the design that the final quote was, and this is the screenshot:
Seems they did only put a 3 ft path on one side (there is a plumbing vent there too). The rest is significantly smaller.
So I wonder whether *all* spacings need to be 3 ft, or (at least) 1 path needs to be?
Deferred Ownership Discount
The Deferred Ownership Discount enables residential cash customers to access the Federal Clean Energy Investment Tax Credit.
Does your quotes have this on it? I wouldn't own the system for 6 years, after that they would turn it over to me, sounds very shady.
The Deferred Ownership Discount enables residential cash customers to access the Federal Clean Energy Investment Tax Credit.
Does your quotes have this on it? I wouldn't own the system for 6 years, after that they would turn it over to me, sounds very shady.
That sounds like a workaround for the removal of individual federal tax credits for solar. Sure maybe they pocket part of the credit, but it's better than getting nothing. The question is how bulletproof is that contract? If they say file for bankruptcy do your panels get liquidated? Not sure..
I think the feds allow that for 1 year (I may be misremembering and it may be 2 years). When they completely removed the solar credit for the average homeowner, they gave it to businesses/commercial enterprises to help lower the cost (or, that is their basic reason they put out there anyway). Here is an article from PV Magazine explaining it.
I can go both ways with this. It irritates me that solar providers get the break - regardless if they pass that savings onto the customer or not (and if you think they aren't at least skimming some of that money, you are a dreamer). OTOH, with the original credit, anyone who didn't pay enough income taxes, may not benefit from the full 30% tax break. Oh wait, who doesn't typically pay income taxes besides the very poor? Hmmmmm.
Anyway, it is a valid thing.
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