Spoke to Dealer ref Defiant NC

[dtabor]

Well, I was in the area so stopped by my dealer and spoke to them ref the great Defiant NC and Everburn. I got the response I expected. Told them of all the people having trouble and dumping the stoves and his response was they have one running in the Montpelier store (I was in a different one) every day and it never has a problem. He also said thats all they stock now as no one want the CAT and they sell a ton of the VC NC stoves and no one has ever complained except me. Of course all my contacts are on here so I had no locals to bring up!! My feeling is that the reason they dont have complaints is that they dont know any better. They buy for the name and by the dealers recommendation, and all they want is heat. Their idea of wood stoves is the old smoke dragons, pack em with wood and they radiate heat, simple as that.

I went round and round with him about things that have been brought up here but he didnt really pick up on what I was saying. Told me I should stop by the other store, check out that NC and speak with a guy there who used to work for VC when it was a VT company.

I also brought up the space around the collar that was in another post here. He said they are ALL like that. In fact he showed me all the VC's in the store and the collars all had spaces. Said I should use gasket, caulk or cement to fill the gap.

SO, no help there. I will say that the stove has worked pretty well for me the past few days. Im not babysitting it and its keeping my draft big ole house warm enough but not sweltering. Got up at 5 after loading around 10 last night and the griddle temp was 400* give or take and there was a ton of coals. House was almost 66 degrees in and -6 outside!

 

[swestall]

YUP. They don't get it. Perhaps they just don't know any better. When you get around to finding someone who wants one of those and you can sell it, then you get something that doesn't require all that effort, you will know.
FYI, in addition to the easy use, I haven't cleaned the glass on my stove since I installed it; except to take a paper towel and run it over quick to clean up a little ash I got on there.
Last night it was below Zero here too, woke up to a warm house with a ton of coals left. Added 5 splits, waited 10 minutes and left.
I don't think VC is going to get it until they go under......again.....perhaps for good: that will be a shame.
NO one is asking for the CATs because they are emphasizing the non CATs: this is also a shame because their CAT stove is a real performer!
Well for now, I'm really glad that you've found a way to live with it until you can deal with it.
Regards,
Steve.

 

[Mandoo]

This gap thing really bugs me! I received the new and improved collar from VC direct at no charge! Outstanding help and fast shipping from the factory (I know this is rare but they sympathized with me do to a dealer with an attitude).

The new collar fit just as bad, possibly worse! I ended up installing a flat gasket inside the stove and it still needed extra cement at this location to fill in the gap that the 1/2" gasket couldn't. I plan on calling them one more time to let them know how bad it is. If I was a dealer I would be out of my mind pissed that they think this is acceptable. Even the pre-drilled holes are off by 1/2+ I will post a follow up on my thread so others may find it during a search.

I should add that the stove kicks butt, it is performing like it should with as advertised burn times. When we picked this stove out our dealer had both and admitted that the N/C was not perfected in the Defiant (so he must of known something) He said it worked great in the smaller model???? Encore??? I have no problem replacing the Cat every few years as long as it performs like it is right now 10* outside!

 

[swestall]

Yes indeed, the CAT stove is really CFM's good product; it is such a shame that they don't seem to realize it.

 

[webbie]

The stove seems to perform well in very cold weather - and with a chimney that fits into a certain "class" (height, etc.).

Remember that VC - from the beginning - were tested by folks in very cold climates! A fella got on the board yesterday who has an original Defiant from 1975 and has never used it in the down draft mode.

One point which I am coming around to - and which many other forum members disagree with - is that stoves should not be over sized, even EPA stoves. Another point is that EPA somewhat forces the design of stoves which tend to overfire into strong chimneys.

I just had a conversation with John Gulland about this - yesterday. I'll get the podcast up soon. But if you are into heavy reading, check this out:
http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm

 

[swestall]

Great points Craig. Perhaps the VC CAT stoves work so well because once the CAT lites off it maintains itself and the stack is a vent.
What I can say is that I've run the Encore and Defiant CAT stoves on an 8x12 clay stack and no problem; the Defiant NC would just not run on it: leading to the point we've discussed about design point sensitivity.
The issue of not oversizing is also very valid; but when an application is on the top end of one product and the lower end of another: I'd always opt for the product where the application was at the bottom of the range, leaving some room for climactic temp variation, BTU loss, etc.
Will read the posted item and watch for the PODCAST.

 

[kevin fitzsimmons]

A couple of points here.

Craig i agree with your comment on draft and epa stoves. I have a tall chimney that produces a ton of drat. If i am not careful i can producee a situation that my primary and secondary air controls on my pe can't shut down. My old VcCNC (everburn) would stall time after time even in this high draft situation and a good bed of coals. I would have thought that good coals, hot refractory system, and strong draft would be an everburn dream. But no, i would open the damper, get it warm again, close the bypass, listen to the everburn rumble fade, go outside, see the smoke start from the stack go to the stove and repeat. It is one thing to be on the learning curve with a new stove, but to never figure out what makes it tick is very frustrating. I had good luck on weekends or at times when i could be at the stoves side for the burn cycle and could babysit the everburn. But lets face it i cant quit my job, or phone in and let them know i am going th be couple hours late because my stove is not behvaing. I sold the stove. When asked why i was clear. It is finicky and my wife an i are wanting a simpler set it and forget it product.

Secondly, are the folks here with problematic Vc ncs just the handfull with problems and the rest of the owners are happy with a product that is functioning as is should, or are they just not aware that most of the time their stove is not working nearly as well as is should?

 

[swestall]

Why Chinook; I think you have it!

Now that living with the frustration is behind me, I am really feeling for those that have or are about to be sold these stoves.

In a recent conversation with a local dealer, he admitted (in the process of recommending a better functioning stove) that they have had the same type problems with another brand that licenses this same technology. And, they have the problem in their own shop. They sometimes have to stick around to get the secondary burning right, then they go to leave and see the smoke from that stack again; repeat. More than once, late closing, late for dinner, etc. He said, we don't light this stove overnite anymore.

This technology is doomed unless the designers find a way to make it reliable and easy to use. Otherwise, the folks who have it and don't know the difference will have extreme chimney problems and the one's that know will be like you and me: owners of new stoves that actually work.

 

[webbie]

Don't underestimate the ability for technology that is less than perfect to achieve stardom. Remember, VHS won out over Beta, etc. etc.

As you mention, people only know what they had - or what the dealer sells them, etc. - the guy who never ran his Defiant in down draft does not know he might be missing something. Hard to believe, but a lot of folks with these stoves may just end up using them in updraft for a lot of the time.

I have always thought the basic design was sound - because of my experience with the Acclaim. But that does not mean it is perfected or user friendly, and I think the average customer values simplicity over complexity. In the podcast (soon come), Gulland pretty much states that bypasses are a problem any way you look at it.

As a summary, I would not suggest these stoves (in general) in temperate climates unless the user stays undersized (a hard thing to do)....they are best, like coal stoves, when used in colder temps and 24/7.

 

[swestall]

Right on Craig!

Last week I was in Boston attending a sales meeting and the keynote speaker was lecturing in "Customerization". The point was that in today's world where we are living a fast paced life, dealing with the internet, employees, children, spouses, etc.... CUSTOMERS want and are willing to pay for the ease of use factor. That is why we have those POD coffee machines, why Starbucks is so successful ($4.00 a cup any way you want it) and so on.

We are a strange lot with our woodstoves, we want the old fashioned life and culture the woodstove has to offer; we just don't want it to inconvenience us too much. AKA: set and go.....

No doubt someone is going to figure out a better way for secondary burns. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

In the meantime my vote is for the burn tube/baffle technology at this point.

 

[Diabel]

Good point Chinook,

In my first year of operating this stove (06-07) I basically used it like a cat stove. Get the fire going once griddle temp was around 450-500 close the damper & forget about it. Never looked at the chimney. I thought everything was ok until I started getting some in the house while opening the top loading door (damper open). Had the chimney cleaned twice that year! I bet you, there are many people out there doing what I did last year.

This year I started with a clean chimney & this forum as a guide & this everburn seems to work for me. You can not load this stove bring temp to 500 shut her down & forget about it (like cat stove). After reload I have to make sure that I am around for at least 1 hr sometimes 2 hrs (depending on the weather outside).

It is burn times that I have issues with (max 6hrs). Couple of knowledgeable members here seem to think that slight overdraft might be my problem (21' sytem from the flue to cap). I am stuffing a good size rock in the flue connector next time the stove is cold!

 

[kevin fitzsimmons]

Don''t get me wrong, i will embrace technology, only if it works for me. I am also not going to say that everburn is the worst technology i have ever owned ( yeah i use Microsoft as well), because when it did kick off, it worked very well. I was unable to ever really learn when, why and how to get it to all come togethere. I was also not going into my new pe with the hopes that it was going to be the end all and be all. I still cant put a match to it an go away. You have to work up the coals, reload and adjust the air. only i can do this much easier and with far less frustration, and with a sense that each week i am actually learning how to finesse the most out of my situation. My only regret is not giving up on the vc earlier. I am pretty patient (only my wife calls it stubborn). Toward the end of the vc and me, the marriage was over i ran her mostly with the bypass open, yeah is put the heat out, it also put a lot up the stack. So far this year i have used a lot less wood. So, i am not going to be aludite on the technology, i only with that the dealers and vc would sit back and realize that they may have a design that is not their best , and act accordingly.

 

[swestall]

NO secret, I hated that thing and love my Mansfield. Its like the difference between a crazed pit bull and Snoopy....