starting to acquire some parts- having some questions

[wtrass]

Hi. Like the title says- starting to get some things together. My installer, who is also a friend, has accounts at plumbing and heating supply wholesalers. We are getting some crazy prices from them. Wanted $1800 for a plate heat exchanger and $30 a foot for insulated 1.25" pex- $120 cut charge on top of that. I guess the question is where do folks get there accessories to do an install? It is a Vigas 40 with 1000 gallon storage.
thanks

 

[brant2000]

Those prices do seem crazy high. Personally, I have purchased a number of things from supplyhouse.com (formerly pexsupply), amazon, and ebay. If you know what you're looking for, you can easily shop around online for prices. Check out some of the advertisers that you'll notice on these forums, namely outdoorfurnacesupply.com and ahona.com to name a few.

 

[velvetfoot]

Perhaps get the big stuff like that on line if you can. When I bought stuff through a plumbing supply place in Albany, they charged me high prices since i wasn't a contractor. I'd try to limit my purchases there, but it is convenient. With the web, there's always a lead time. Supplyhouse.com has a generous return plan too, but don't wait too long, because there's a percentage hit based on time. You might want to make an "items wanted" topic, since I bet people have extra stuff that they might never use.

 

[ewdudley]

With the web, there's always a lead time.

I've been getting overnight delivery from SupplyHouse.com with their cheapest shipping option here west of Syracuse, if they have it in stock. I've wasted a couple trips over to F W Webb during lunch hour only to find they were out of stock on items SupplyHouse had.

@wtrass: What is the heat exchanger for?

 

[velvetfoot]

I've wasted a couple trips over to F W Webb

That's the place I was talking about. I've had the same experience, plus the sticker shock. You can't get 1.25" copper pipe over the web though. Well, maybe you can, I didn't. I brought 'em home with my Hyundai Accent, lol. It's amazing how much 1.25" copper fittings cost too.
While I got most of my plumbing stuff from supplyhouse.com, it still pays to shop around some, like on ebay if you have the patience; I recall getting stuff like relays and pump controllers cheap there. I got dvl stove pipe from northlineexpress.com-they were helpful.
I'd also suggest doing what I didn't do, and finalize your design and do a material takeoff from that, make a list, and then go shopping, hitting the web first, and doing some comparison shopping.

 

[ewdudley]

I'd also suggest doing what I didn't do, and finalize your design and do a material takeoff from that, make a list, and then go shopping

Roger that. I've been fortunate to have gotten some experience as a swing-shift electrician where I had a half-hour to study my work orders, sketch my jobs, and pull my parts list before the first-shift stock room clerk closed the window.

And definitely keep an eye on ebay and craigslist. I got a couple bushels of 007s, 15-58s, 009, 011, fittings, and so forth for next to nothing.

 

[maple1]

@wtrass: What is the heat exchanger for?

And how big is it? Must be a monster.

I was stuck even more on the outside here - not near the access to online stuff. (e.g. SupplyHouse doesn't ship up here). I got most of my stuff at the local P,H & E supplier who caters mostly to contractors but also sells to the public with less of a break on pricing. I got my FPHX there, but they had to order it in - but it wasn't much more than what I saw online. I just got a B&G 90v bladder expansion tank from them last week for next summers project - they also had to order it, and it took a couple months to get here, but also no more $ than what I saw online. I got some smaller random control stuff via Ebay, and also outdoorfurnacesupply & a couple other places. For the underground piping, I would check out local OWB sellers - but make sure you get the good stuff.

 

[arbutus]

I got some stuff from supplyhouse.com, and other stuff from the local hvac/plumbing contractor supply place.
Supplyhouse was wildly over the local supplier for a few things but competitive on most.
Insulated pex I got from a local Central Boiler dealer/installer. The FPHX came from the New Horizons online store.

 

[wtrass]

I wasn't going to name the company, however, several of you nailed it. That's at my buddies price. Heat exchanger is to have in the house as the boiler is going to be in an outbuilding. Can't be too big- the house is only about 1600 sq. ft. I have used pex supply(supply house) in the past and will look at them again. I was able to pick up some 1.5 copper as there is a real old True Value going out of business in our town and he gave me a good deal on the pipe and fittings. I did call around and found a logstor dealer that was significantly cheaper. I appreciate all the feedback.

 

[ewdudley]

Heat exchanger is to have in the house as the boiler is going to be in an outbuilding.

So storage is not going to be pressurized? You should be able to find propane or anhydrous tanks for storage for less money than the FPHX.

 

[maple1]

I can't get over the price of the FPHX. $1800? The most expensive tabbed B&G one (just looked at those real quick as that is what I got) on supplyhouse is $700, and it's rated at 350,000 btu/hr. $700 at Outdoorfurnace will get a 5x12, 90 plate with 1-1/4" fittings. Both of which are likely more than you would need - but might want to run some numbers for sizing to be sure.

 

[velvetfoot]

You should be able to find propane or anhydrous tanks for storage for less money than the FPHX.

Apropos of nothing, a semi passed in the other direction yesterday loaded with big used propane tanks on Rt. 7 near the VT/NY line. He was going west. I never saw that before. Maybe I wasn't looking then.

 

[JustWood]

I've got some boiler parts/supplies in my store.
Lots of other stuff yet to be inventoried. Time is an issue.
Link in signature below.

 

[wtrass]

propane or

Storage will be pressurized but it is in an outside building. Heat exchanger will be for the flexibility of isolating the system and not having to run off the wood. I didn't mention it in my original post but the boiler will also heat the garage slab that is next to the boiler addition. Didn't want to commit to having to heat the garage with oil if we leave for a few days. I had to look twice at the heat exchange price also. I couldn't believe the $120 cut charge for insulated pex that was already priced quite high.

 

[maple1]

Not knowing any of your system details, you should be able isolate things in order to just use one fuel source or the other when wanted, without using a heat exchanger - I think. Unless there is some part of overall system that is open or unpressurized, you should be able to get something sorted out that won't require a HX. Heating DHW will require one of some sort, though, if you are planning to do that.

 

[Eric Johnson]

I second the Ebay suggestion IF you know what you're looking for. Lots of oddball parts that you may or may not want. Don't assume anything.

You can get Taco 007 circulators, for example, for about half price. They come off of boilers that contractors buy and then swap in another pump. Great deals can be had. And used parts, like wells, are a lot cheaper than new parts would be with no appreciable difference in quality or utility.

 

[ewdudley]

you should be able isolate things in order to just use one fuel source or the other when wanted, without using a heat exchanger

You bet. There's plenty of ways to set it up so you can take the wood boiler system off-line if needed. Freeze protection is a concern, but it's easy enough work out a way to add a little heat and circulat some water from time to time eliminate that potential problem.

 

[wtrass]

I'm all ears. It was setup with a heat exchanger but I am flexible. I have not really purchased anything other than the Vigas, some copper and was given the 1000 gallon storage tank. The boiler is in a 16x20 addition to a 28x40 garage. The 28x40 garage has pex in the floor and will have a bathroom with a sidetank for hot domestic out there. The boiler addition is about 40 feet from the house. The house is 1600 sq. ft. with hot water baseboard, a Utica oil boiler and a domestic sidetank. I would like to keep it simple but have no "should have" after I am done. I'm pretty handy and my buddy is an HVAC guy. I also love a bargain and have no problem buying used stuff that can be repaired. I can see the day when we won't have to spend all winter in New York and would like to set the system up so we don't have to but also don't spend a lot heating garage space when we are gone. Thanks for the suggestions and keep them coming.

 

[ewdudley]

'm all ears. It was setup with a heat exchanger but I am flexible.

Assuming your garage and boiler addition will be tight and reasonably well insulated it won't take much heat at all to keep it all at 40 to 50 degF for weeks on end in the dead of winter in your climate.

You're going to end up with a loop from the garage to the house.

When the wood boiler system is in service the loop will be supplying heat to the house with a pump that runs periodically.

One approach to keep everything in the garage safely above freezing would be to run that pump on a timer so that it can move some water through the underground loop every hour for a minute or so just to be sure some cold spot doesn't develop (although that's very unlikely).

Additionally the same pump would need run on an aquastat that would take heat from the house system to keep the top of storage at 50 degF or whatever. Then turn down your setpoints for the garage in-floor and DHW load and you'll be in good shape.

If you charged your 1000 gallon storage before you left town and switched over to freeze-prevention mode it could take a couple weeks before storage got down to 50 degF to begin with.

 

[jebatty]

Achieving freeze protection for my shop was a bigger mental concern that reality has shown it to be. Tarm boiler in the shop along with 1000 gal pressurized storage, well insulated. In-floor pex with antifreeze on a heat exchanger to separate it from boiler/storage. I have a Ranco temp controller that shuts down draw from the tank when tank top drops to 90F. The tank will hold temp very well. The longest I have been away is a little over two weeks in the dead of winter (typical -20F to +10F) and the tank hasn't dropped under the mid to low 80'sF. I think it would take at least a couple of months to get it to the 60'sF. The main reason I leave the setting at 90F, rather than to protect the tank from freezing, is that it takes a long time to heat that tank back up again, and it is much easier starting at about 90F than some much lower temperature, like a fall start-up after summer shut down when the tank is at about 68F.

Even though the in-floor pex has antifreeze, I do provide supplemental electric heat from a 5000W - 240V space heater set at 40F to maintain the shop well above freezing during long absences. That takes very little electricity.

 

[jebatty]

As to a wood boiler in the house ... the Tarm is every bit if not more fire-safe to put in the living room than is our wood stove. Aesthetics would be the main reason not to do that. My wife and I don't mind a little bit of smoke into the house when we reload the wood stove in the living room, and the Tarm rolls out even less smoke when the firebox door is opened.

Now, if I had a Froling, I think that girl would have to go in the living room. She looks like a top end appliance, more showy than a top end refrigerator in the kitchen. I could see the Froling in the living room with storage in the basement, very sweet. Can't do it all for small bucks though.

 

[velvetfoot]

I might have asked this already, but if you allow the top of storage to allow to drop to 90, which I guess you can with your low temperature emitters (can a slab be called an emitter, not sure?), what do you do for DHW?

As far as a wood gasifier in the living room, I'd love it if someone who had something like this would write about it:
http://hydro-to-heat-convertor.com/gasification.html

 

[maple1]

I might have asked this already, but if you allow the top of storage to allow to drop to 90, which I guess you can with your low temperature emitters (can a slab be called an emitter, not sure?), what do you do for DHW?

Electricity, if needed.

 

[velvetfoot]

That's be a nice problem to have, but for me I need more temp for the baseboards.

 

[maple1]

Yes, me too - although I have enough baseboard in that I'm OK down to 140 at least, and if it's not really cold/windy out I can go down another 15 or so. I still want to add in some cast rads in certain spots - and lately have been thinking awfully hard about in-floor in the kitchen when it comes time to replace the pine flooring which the dog now has pretty well trashed.