storage was dowm to 86 F this morning

[woodsmaster]

temperature here has been getting up to around 50 during the day and 40s at night. went three days without a fire. got up this morning and the house was a little cool, about 67 F. went to the boiler shed and the bottom of my storage was at 86 F Just weird for the end of December. Looks like winter is arriving in a few days though. Just burnt a couple of loads of wood and got storage up to temp, and everything nice and toasty.

 

[huffdawg]

When temps start to get below freezin , I burn 2 to 3 loads a day... way harder on the wood pile... I burn all softwood though.Not much for hardwoods here.

 

[woodsmaster]

When temps start to get below freezin , I burn 2 to 3 loads a day... way harder on the wood pile... I burn all softwood though.Not much for hardwoods here.

When it gets real cold I burn a couple loads a day too. The wood pile is actually going pretty slow so far. I hope we don't make up for it too much in January and February.

 

[mike van]

Last year winter in New England didn't really start until just after Jan 10th, then it didn't leave till the end of March.

 

[woodsmaster]

Last year winter in New England didn't really start until just after Jan 10th, then it didn't leave till the end of March.

I'm afraid that's how it will be here.

 

[maple1]

Last year winter in New England didn't really start until just after Jan 10th, then it didn't leave till the end of March.

It was more like end of April here.

 

[BoilerMan]

I remember having a few fires in the living room wood stove (after I shut down the boiler) in July!

TS

 

[maple1]

I just lit a fire after just getting back home from our annual Xmas in laws trip. Left Saturday morning with charged storage, electric boiler simmering away when we got back keeping the house at 14c. Storage was 110/105.

I have noticed odd behavior when burning with cold storage and pulling a heavy load at the same time. Right now, all 4 zones are heating, and my storage is charging upside down. It's up to 117 on the bottom now, no change at the top. Ya just never know how all that water is going to behave until you get pumping it under different conditions.

 

[JohnDolz]

I just lit a fire after just getting back home from our annual Xmas in laws trip. Left Saturday morning with charged storage, electric boiler simmering away when we got back keeping the house at 14c. Storage was 110/105.

I have noticed odd behavior when burning with cold storage and pulling a heavy load at the same time. Right now, all 4 zones are heating, and my storage is charging upside down. It's up to 117 on the bottom now, no change at the top. Ya just never know how all that water is going to behave until you get pumping it under different conditions.

I installed an Effecta 35kw last year and was pulling water from the top of my tank straight into my heating loop. I was experiencing the same thing you described, I could barely produce enough hot water to keep up with demand and had to run a fire for almost 16 hours to get my 1000 gallons to temp. This lead me to believe I needed a bigger unit (probably did) and this summer I installed an Effecta 60kw. Sadly the Effecta distributor passed away unexpectedly leaving me on my own to install the unit (well work with the manufacturer and plumber to get it installed). The manufacturer was amazingly helpful and spent a ton of time with me. One thing that frustrated the guy in Sweden was my insisting that I needed 160+ degree water to heat my house. He asked me to trust him and install a shunt (mixing valve) and let the boiler choose the right water temp via its heat curve and motorized/computer controlled shunt valve. I did as asked and have been amazed. I have been keeping my house at 72 degrees with water between 95 - 110 degrees, granted it has been warm. In Europe they do not run room thermostats, instead the run a constant stream of low temperature water - kind of like using cruise control on your car vs. stomping on the gas, coasting, then stomping again (i.e. using a thermostat to control high temp water). I've been meaning to write something up and post to see if others are doing this as well. I find that I am getting MUCH more mileage out of my tanks once they are up to temperature. Last year I was constantly throwing wood in and preoccupied with thinking about it. This year I forget to sometimes go start a fire and even have my controller set at 100 (this is when the controller give control back to my propane boiler).Not sure if you are doing this but if not you may want to give it a try, I am more than impreseed and certainly a believer.

 

[maple1]

What do you have for heat distribution?

I have hot water baseboard, and even though it was oversized when it was put in 20 years ago, it is not THAT oversized. My house starts to lose heat when the water gets below 140 or so, in mid-winter. Certainly can't run below 130. If I had some additional radiant, I could no doubt go a bit lower than that - there are a couple of places I want to add a couple of cast iron rads, just hasn't happened yet. Maybe for next winter.

 

[JohnDolz]

What do you have for heat distribution?

I have hot water baseboard, and even though it was oversized when it was put in 20 years ago, it is not THAT oversized. My house starts to lose heat when the water gets below 140 or so, in mid-winter. Certainly can't run below 130. If I had some additional radiant, I could no doubt go a bit lower than that - there are a couple of places I want to add a couple of cast iron rads, just hasn't happened yet. Maybe for next winter.

I have baseboard hot water as well. My adventure started about 4 years ago when I installed a condensing propane boiler with an outdoor reset (that is a story for another day - it was never installed correctly and never did was it was designed to do). Basically I tried dropping my house temperature at night and the house never recovered. The problem was blamed on the outdoor reset so it was removed and I was running at 180 degree firing temp - I was convinced I needed high water temp. When I installed my wood boiler last year I worked off of this assumption and was always struggling to keep water temperature hot. Regarding your house, everything is variable as you know so it depends on heat loss, ceiling height, outdoor temp, etc. In my setup I use a heat curve the when it is -10 Degrees (negative 10) my water temp will be 140F, when it is 32F my water temp is 107F - curve is pretty much linear. The problem is if you try to drop temperature at night, the house will never recover with water temp that low. The solution is to run constant temperature - I am fortunate that my boiler also has an indoor sensor, when the Indoor Temperature varies more than 2 degrees the Indoor control overrides the outdoor sensor and increase flow temp until I am back in the target zone. This allows me to use a energy saver mode at night (to drop house temp), temporarily use hotter water to recover and then go back to low flow temp (with almost constant flow). Not sure if any of this helps or if it is too much info, feel free to ask any questions. I am no expert but learned a lot in my workings with Effecta. Can't say it will work for you but it has certainly worked for me and completely changed my opinion on low temperature flow. I have even learned how my propane boiler is supposed to work and reprogrammed it so that it is actually as efficient as it was designed to be.

 

[velvetfoot]

Your Effecta sounds awesome! The controls are great.
I'm fooling around with storage and my pellet boiler, which is at a much smaller scale. Recovery from setback can be a big problem.

 

[JohnDolz]

Your Effecta sounds awesome! The controls are great.
I'm fooling around with storage and my pellet boiler, which is at a much smaller scale. Recovery from setback can be a big problem.

I am loving my Effecta. I wouldn't worry about Recovery/Setback, I would run constant temperature with low flow temp. I believe the efficiency you will gain out of your storage will be far greater than anything you gain from setback. Keep in mind I am an amateur and only know enough to be dangerous.

 

[velvetfoot]

Bear in mind though, your storage is probably 10 times mine!

 

[JohnDolz]

True but my understanding is that pellet boilers use smaller storage tanks because the pellet boiler just fires more often. I think of storage as a rechargeable battery; as long as it has enough charge in it the size doesn't matter (your "charger" is designed to be used more often. The is a Hearth Member, NP Alaska, that has an Effecta system but also has the pellet burner. I know he runs that off of 250 gallons. He will be installing the same type of automated shunt/mixing system and may have some thoughts. I'll shoot him an email and point him to this thread. In fact as I think about him it reminds me that I had the same discussion with him, once his tanks got down to 130 his temps were dropping. The problem, I believe is that the "battery" is too low on energy at that point. When the top of you storage tank is at 130 you have very little energy left in the tank. However if the tank is at higher temps it has the energy it needs to keep the flow temp where it needs to be. Remember the key is the flow temp NOT the tank temp. Hope some of this helps.

 

[velvetfoot]

Yes, it does, thanks. In all likelihood his Effecta pellet option has similar reset controls for boiler water temp control integration with storage as yours does. For my pellet boiler, I can't see why it should ever charge the 119 gallons of storage at more than 30%, since it's just excess heat after the zones are satisfied, used to extend the run time of the boiler. Conversely, hot storage water should be used while the boiler is running, down at 30% again, to make room for more heat storage. I'm not sure if on/off is going to do the job, leading to more proportional temperature, constant flow, like you have, but there are also things like; figuring out what to do, is it worth it, doing it, and paying for it. It's still fun to think about though. In fact, I'm on my way to the basement now to tweak some pump settings.

 

[woodsmaster]

I would like to add an outdoor reset to my system, but it works good enough for now that I don't want to spend the money. Maybe someday...

 

[woodsmaster]

I do get more mileage out of my wood running lower temp water. I just don't heat the water so hot most of the time.

 

[JohnDolz]

Yes, it does, thanks. In all likelihood his Effecta pellet option has similar reset controls for boiler water temp control integration with storage as yours does. For my pellet boiler, I can't see why it should ever charge the 119 gallons of storage at more than 30%, since it's just excess heat after the zones are satisfied, used to extend the run time of the boiler. Conversely, hot storage water should be used while the boiler is running, down at 30% again, to make room for more heat storage. I'm not sure if on/off is going to do the job, leading to more proportional temperature, constant flow, like you have, but there are also things like; figuring out what to do, is it worth it, doing it, and paying for it. It's still fun to think about though. In fact, I'm on my way to the basement now to tweak some pump settings.

Have fun! My brain is too full to even start thinking about the impact on smaller storage tank, I will leave that to NP Alaska. I am hoping to get a plumber here to continue my fun. Running such low flow temp created a problem with my DHW. I had to switch my DHW back to my propane boiler so when DHW calls for heat the circulator pumps suck it up and push it through my house. I will be tapping into my waterline (being pulled from the storage tank) and running it through a separate mixing valve, my wood boiler has the ability to control a separate "zone" for DHW so I can mix water at a higher temp to meet my DHW need separate from heating zones. This will run on a yet another circulator pump (not part of my heating manifold) so none of this hotter water will go into my heating zones. Does this make any financial sense, of course not. Will I be doing it, of course. Maybe one day I will redo the whole system similar to a European approach, no circulator pumps, just 1 or 2 "radiator pumps" (just big circulator pumps) to run constant flow with the house as 1 or 2 zones with no thermostats - my propane boiler is designed to function this way as well but in the US we make it work via a Taco Switch. The possibilities of spending thousands to save pennies is endless.

I do get more mileage out of my wood running lower temp water. I just don't heat the water so hot most of the time.

Sounds like you are already a believer in the low temp water. Not sure of your system set up but if you have a manual heating valve you can simply add a temperature sensor to one of your flow pipes and mix accordingly. When you do decide to go for an outdoor reset I suggest doing some research on what they use in Europe. My Effecta boiler is their latest model and has the control for the shunt/mixing valve built into the boiler controls. This is a fairly new model for them so I believe previous installs utilized (of the Effecta units) used an outdoor reset that was tied to some computerized control which then controlled the shunt/mixing valve. I am not sure if anyone in the US carries this kind of stuff. I believe it is commonly used in the greenhouse industry, where they need to run very low water temp for the radiant floors but I haven't been able to find anything for residential use.

 

[maple1]

There are lots of believers here in low temp water. I changed my habits too, last year, by not charging as high & running storage cooler before burning. But the distribution system needs to match the heat load to optimize it. I think low temp emitters like cast iron baseboards or panel rads are more the norm in Europe. In floor is also good. Adding a couple of cast iron rads is on my radar, hopefully for next year.

 

[velvetfoot]

my wood boiler has the ability to control a separate "zone" for DHW so I can mix water at a higher temp to meet my DHW need separate from heating zones.

Again, very cool, or shall I say, warm to the appropriate degree.

 

[velvetfoot]

Adding a couple of cast iron rads is on my radar, hopefully for next year.

Yes, hopefully. However, if you chose the panel radiators you could always say: "But Honey, it's European!"

 

[JohnDolz]

Have fun! My brain is too full to even start thinking about the impact on smaller storage tank, I will leave that to NP Alaska. I am hoping to get a plumber here to continue my fun. Running such low flow temp created a problem with my DHW. I had to switch my DHW back to my propane boiler so when DHW calls for heat the circulator pumps suck it up and push it through my house. I will be tapping into my waterline (being pulled from the storage tank) and running it through a separate mixing valve, my wood boiler has the ability to control a separate "zone" for DHW so I can mix water at a higher temp to meet my DHW need separate from heating zones. This will run on a yet another circulator pump (not part of my heating manifold) so none of this hotter water will go into my heating zones. Does this make any financial sense, of course not. Will I be doing it, of course. Maybe one day I will redo the whole system similar to a European approach, no circulator pumps, just 1 or 2 "radiator pumps" (just big circulator pumps) to run constant flow with the house as 1 or 2 zones with no thermostats - my propane boiler is designed to function this way as well but in the US we make it work via a Taco Switch. The possibilities of spending thousands to save pennies is endless.

Sounds like you are already a believer in the low temp water. Not sure of your system set up but if you have a manual heating valve you can simply add a temperature sensor to one of your flow pipes and mix accordingly. When you do decide to go for an outdoor reset I suggest doing some research on what they use in Europe. My Effecta boiler is their latest model and has the control for the shunt/mixing valve built into the boiler controls. This is a fairly new model for them so I believe previous installs utilized (of the Effecta units) used an outdoor reset that was tied to some computerized control which then controlled the shunt/mixing valve. I am not sure if anyone in the US carries this kind of stuff. I believe it is commonly used in the greenhouse industry, where they need to run very low water temp for the radiant floors but I haven't been able to find anything for residential use.

Forgot t add you can go to the Effecta website and download the manual for their boiler. In the manual you will find a couple of pages that talk about the heat curve and you will find graphed examples of the curve.

Again, very cool, or shall I say, warm to the appropriate degree.

It has been a fun learning experience

 

[JohnDolz]

There are lots of believers here in low temp water. I changed my habits too, last year, by not charging as high & running storage cooler before burning. But the distribution system needs to match the heat load to optimize it. I think low temp emitters like cast iron baseboards or panel rads are more the norm in Europe. In floor is also good. Adding a couple of cast iron rads is on my radar, hopefully for next year.

My initial thoughts were the delivery system as well, even did some reading on low temperature baseboard heaters. I spent a lot of time talking with Effecta and asked them about their distribution systems, yes they use radiant heat a lot more than we do but other than that nothing fancy/different. At the end of the day it is all about delivering BTU's to the house. When I thought about low temp baseboard heaters, they are really just baseboard heaters with more than 1 pipe delivering hot water, they are really just delivering additional BTU's. My decision was to stay with the standard baseboard and just have constant circulation deliver the extra BTU's. My understanding is that the norm in Europe is not to have room thermostats (and therefore circulator pumps) instead they have what they call radiator pumps that run water through the system 24x7. The idea is constant flow temp. I believe the challenge with running low storage temp is that it can quickly drop to the point where it cannot maintain the desired flow temp.

 

[NP ALASKA]

Good evening all

Been a bit busy here, welding an adapter for my Tigex draft enducer. Finished it tonight, just waiting on some high heat paint tomorrow. Stores were all closed today

As for the discussion at hand, i have recieved the parts to install shunt valve. Plan to start it in a few weeks.

I am running pellet almost all the time this year. I have it set to 150 - 170, as mentioned i use a 250 gallon vertical buffer tank. Thentank extends between firings as stated by Effecta. I am running about 100 gallons more than they wanted i think, but still works great.
I am intregued to see how things perform with lower temps here in Jan.

I definatley have quit charging my system so high, max is around 180-185 I think.

They key has been to keep pumps moving, should work slick with new stuff.

More to follow..........